4000 pts Panthers vs. 4000 pts Hellcats

[jbertles]

What do you think?

I'll soon post "Catfight" at the Depot.

4000 pts. of Panthers vs. 4000 pts. of Hellcats, with a few terrified SPW 250/9 hts and M8 Greyhounds thrown in.

Hilly terrain, so It's no billiard-table OK Corral-style shootout.

Pedal to the metal balls to the walls all out no holds barred cage match armor-only mayhem.

Can you say "gamey"?

Faster Pussycat, Kill! Kill!

[The_Enigma]

the hellcats are gonner get slaughterd arnt they? they only got 22mm armour! ... shouldnt you throw some other tanks in maybe?

[Rob Murray]

" the hellcats are gonner get slaughterd arnt they? they only got 22mm armour! ... shouldnt you throw some other tanks in maybe? "

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I've lost a number of Tiger 1's to well placed M10's. :mad:

[dieseltaylor]

I suspect it might be a case of I will remain out of line of sight and area fire my HE near to the M10!

Who knows it might just work : )

[winkelried]

Originally posted by the_enigma:

the hellcats are gonner get slaughterd arnt they? they only got 22mm armour! ... shouldnt you throw some other tanks in maybe?

I'll take the fight against your Panthers if you want to

[The_Enigma]

ooo a challenge

[jbertles]

To be exact:

18 Panther Gs, 4 SPW 250/9

vs.

40 M18 Hellcats (!), 7 M8 Greyhounds

Just by sheer numbers it seems a slaughter, but in playtesting vs AI and PBEM both sides have achieved victory.

And, a Hellcat ain't no M10. Sure, the armor is light, but they are FAST (fastest full-tracked vehicle of the war). Like cockroaches in the kitchen when you flick the light on....

Probably up by tomorrow or so.

[aka_tom_w]

OK

Greyhounds and Hellcats THE PERFECT Gamey combo for the Allies! he he he (ANY good Allied player should be able to beat the AI with this deadly combination this scenario) Against a GOOD Panther Tank Jockey the scenario would be challenging I would guess..

BUT I LOVE the Hellcat!

40 to 18 ODDS that GOOD for the Hellcats (better than 2 to 1)

I suspect I could win this one with the Hellcats

I just wish I had more time to play.

(I think the poor Kitty's would be out numbered ( + 2 to 1) and not have much of a chance to win to be honest)

How many flags?

any infantry?

Air craft?

Arty?

what year is it set in?

it sounds fun and interesting

-tom w

Originally posted by jbertles:

To be exact:

18 Panther Gs, 4 SPW 250/9

vs.

40 M18 Hellcats (!), 7 M8 Greyhounds

Just by sheer numbers it seems a slaughter, but in playtesting vs AI and PBEM both sides have achieved victory.

And, a Hellcat ain't no M10. Sure, the armor is light, but they are FAST (fastest full-tracked vehicle of the war). Like cockroaches in the kitchen when you flick the light on....

Probably up by tomorrow or so.

[ January 10, 2005, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[jbertles]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

How many flags?

any infantry?

Air craft?

Arty?

what year is it set in?

it sounds fun and interesting

3 big flags more or less down the center line

aircraft, arty, infantry? Mere distractions! Straight out rootin' teuton armor-only murdelization.

1945 (only because that's when you first get Hellcats in CMAK). It could just as well be 1066 or 1968 in terms of reality.

Forget any kind of pathetic rationalization. This is pure deathmatch.

If anyone wants to get an early jump send me an email and I'll forward it to you.

But if you play, please please please review!

[Bone_Vulture]

Unless the Panthers get a hold of high ground of some type and gather in a tight formation, they won't stand a chance.

[Denwad]

I hate Greyhounds with a passion

they make Panzer IVs literally useless, no wonder all I buy now is STuHs, Hetzers and Panthers

[jbertles]

Originally posted by Bone_Vulture:

Unless the Panthers get a hold of high ground of some type and gather in a tight formation, they won't stand a chance.

Well, that's one way to approach it. But with the numbers of Hellcats, and the bumpiness of the map:

there is an excellent chance that the Hellcats will get flanking shots on the static Panthers.

[winkelried]

Looks like ideal Hellcat terrain ...

When I play Hellcats in QBs (naturally 5000pts) I like to use the real TD OB (as close as possible) and try to use TD doctrine (see the Leavenworth Paper #12) and give the the opponent what he wants .

A TD Coy would be organized as follows:

12 M-18 Hellcat (3 platoons with 4 each)

6 M-20 AC (2 for each platoon)

2 M-20 AC (Coy HQ section)

I often add a rifle platoon to simulate the foot recon elements on the M-20 (one 1/2 section per TD platoon).

reinforcements (from TD Bn):

2 M-8 Greyhound (1 platoon from the recon coy)

one pioneer section (1 M-20, 1 truck)

see here for more details.

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by jbertles:

there is an excellent chance that the Hellcats will get flanking shots on the static Panthers.

Obviously I meant a hedgehog formation. Considering the Hellcat's far superior mobility, I believe that the Panthers will get flanked far worse if they attempt mobile defense.

I suggest the Germans trade the halftracks for 37mm flaks. Those will annihilate the kitties.

[BigDork]

see here for more details

My grandfather was in the 100th Infantry Division. He was a medic attached to Love Co. 399th Infantry Regiment.

[aka_tom_w]

has it been posted/released it yet?

-tom w

[aka_tom_w]

Trading the German Half tracks for gamey 37 mm Flack Death Mobiles would bring a WHOLE new Level of "gameyness" to this already GAMEY (but FUN) scenario.

(is the Allied (USA( Quad .50 cal) Halftrack available in this game? (CMAK? ) if so I want to tradea couple of Grey hounds for the the Quad .50 cal HT's because they are FUN!!

yeah but.......

it is ready yet?

-tom w

Originally posted by Bone_Vulture:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jbertles:

there is an excellent chance that the Hellcats will get flanking shots on the static Panthers.

Obviously I meant a hedgehog formation. Considering the Hellcat's far superior mobility, I believe that the Panthers will get flanked far worse if they attempt mobile defense.

I suggest the Germans trade the halftracks for 37mm flaks. Those will annihilate the kitties. </font>

[Other Means]

Can someone do an AAR of this one - looks fun. I can host images if needed.

[jbertles]

Originally posted by Bone_Vulture

I suggest the Germans trade the halftracks for 37mm flaks. Those will annihilate the kitties.

Originally posted by aka_tom_w

Trading the German Half tracks for gamey 37 mm Flack Death Mobiles would bring a WHOLE new Level of "gameyness" to this already GAMEY (but FUN) scenario.

(is the Allied (USA( Quad .50 cal) Halftrack available in this game? (CMAK? ) if so I want to tradea couple of Grey hounds for the the Quad .50 cal HT's because they are FUN!!

Which 37mm flaks did you mean? The unarmored SdKfz 6/2 (toast); the partially armored SdKfz 7/2 (another ridiculous vehicle that has to run around in reverse all the time); or the formidable Ostwind?

Regardless, I'm sticking with the original cast of vehicles. They are really only supposed to be used as recon vehicles (which is why you have apx 1 per platoon - a bit fewer on the US side). I don't want any German ACs that could possibly take out a Hellcat, except by a lucky flank shot. Same with the Greyhounds - no use against the Panthers.

The US quad-50 M16 MGMC is tempting, since one could probably take out a 250/9 ht, but no, I love the Greyhounds and am going to stick with them for the time being. I am open to further suggestions after it's been played.

I have to admit, I really miss those wonderful 50mm Pumas - had some great recon battles with those in CMBO.

The scenario will be up tonight - very shortly.

[ January 11, 2005, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: jbertles ]

[jbertles]

Ok, it's up - at the Depot, of course.

Thanks to BigMik 1 for playtesting, and to Admiral Keth for the site.

Enjoy, gentlemen! and let me know how it goes....

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by jbertles:

Which 37mm flaks did you mean? The unarmored SdKfz 6/2 (toast); the partially armored SdKfz 7/2 (another ridiculous vehicle that has to run around in reverse all the time); or the formidable Ostwind?

I meant plain, non-mechanized 37mm field flaks. I'd use 'em to cover the flanks and risky keyhole positions.

[aka_tom_w]

I played it as the Allies against the Axis AI

It was FUN

A shoot out like the good old CMBO days

It would have been FAR more Challengeing against a good Human opponent

but I enjoyed playing FAST against the AI and there was no waste time waiting for moves.

I played it out in about 60 -70 minutes last night

I won with a %68 win rating

ALL the Axis vehicles were destroyed and I held all the flags and the Axis AI was forced to surrender

I lost lots Hellcats though

I only had 5 hellcats and 1 greyhound left fully functional at the end.

For my money that was ONE FUN scenario

It was the MOST fun I have had playing CMAK

It sort of reminded me of the fun you could have with the CMBO demo scenario's.

(it was bigger in scope YES but it was fun.

The AI did not really provide any form of tactical challenge BUT the Panthers seemed HARDER to kill than in CMBO. I was thinking that the Hellcat might KO some Panthers with frontal shots and that NOT all kills would have to come from the rear or flanks.

BUT it appeared that the Hellcats had to get dangerously close (I think less then 500- 600 m is that right?) to score a K-Kill from the frontal aspect. I had sort of forgotten about this part a had a few too many Hellcats killed while engaging in frontal to frontal tank duals while hull down at any range over about 600- 700m.

I think at some point I would like to try it again with a shrewd human opponent.

Good FUN Scenario

You should try it

(I would guess that you could EASILY win this scenario with EITHER side if you played the AI because you need to be smart to win if you are playing this one. Either the Axis or the Allies against the AI should let any half decent player win because the tactics needed for victory in these conditions aginst the AI are not known to, or unavailable to the AI for this scenario. (As you might expect in these condtions IMHO))

BUT that is not a bad thing

Its STILL FUN TO WIN.

he he

-tom w

[ January 13, 2005, 07:26 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[ParaBellum]

Out of pure sadism I played this scenario against the AI with me commanding the german kitties.

After 7 turns I ended the battle, sparing the poor AI further humiliation.

At that point I had killed 22 Hellcats and lost 2 Panthers...

Should be a hell of a battle vs a human opponent though.

EDIT: Tom, in my game I lost both Panthers to front turret penetrations at 1000+m.

[jbertles]

aka_tom_w and Parabellum:

Thanks for playing!

Sometimes the simplest stuff is the best.

Although I'm no grog about shell penetrations, yes, it is difficult for the Hellcats to get consistent frontal kills against the Panthers. Flanking shots are another matter.

That made the outcome much more dependent on the terrain. As I was telling Richie, this is one of the few scenarios that I have made that began with a computer-generated map. I've nearly always started a map from scratch.

But to enable the Hellcats enough opportunity to zip around the defiles and try for flank shots I had to edit the computer-generated map to lower the valleys and raise the highlands. This gives the map a sort of pimply teenager look.

And yes, playing the AI in this scenario can be deeply satisfying, but it's rather like whipping a crippled child. It was faaaaaar more fun to play against a human opponent.

Sounds like you two should challenge each other!

So... REVIEW!! It doesn't take long, and you have no idea what a warm and fuzzy little bit o' happiness you will give to a long-suffering designer...

[Richie]

Hmmmm... FEEDBACK!

I couldn't agree more!

You guys, who play the games, who supply the feedback, however small or whatever the opinion, are the bread and butter, the word in the ear for the designers so they can know if going in the right direction...

Richie