New to CM Afrika Korps

[1533X2 Chevy]

Gidday from New Zealand. And because I am so new to the game and to this page...a question right off!

1)The Long Range Desert Group played a vital role throughout the North African series of campaigns. I'm wondering about the possibility of creating a scenario based on the 'Barce Raid' of September 1942, when the LRDG attacked the barracks and airfield. The opposing forces were mainly Italian AB-41 armoured cars, light tankettes and aircraft (during the withdrawl phase most of the LRDG's vehicles were destroyed by Fiat CR 42s).

Q) How would I go about creating such a scenario?

Any thoughts?

TIA

Jeff W. :cool:

[GreenAsJade]

I'd wander on over to The Proving Grounds, which is where all the scenario creators hang out, and ask them there.

Cheers,

GaJ

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Ah gawds, not another kiwi! Welcome and pull up a chair.

There's always been a lot of interest in these raids but to be honest, if someone pulled off a good LRDG/SAS scenario, then I'm not aware of it. The CM engine just doesn't seem to handle it very well.

There are a few problems with simulating such raids, as CM doesn't simulate surprise nor does the speed of the attacker give much protection to him. So the moment the LRDG or SAS encounters an enemy, they'd be in trouble.

As for the vehicles you'd need to simulate the raiders, the White scout car and the MG jeep are the prime choices there. The White truck is over armoured for the job, really. But it's a nice compensation for the game engine not giving enough advantage for roaring around in the dark at high speed with all guns blazing.

For parked planes, use something fragile and expensive. One of those Italian SPAA trucks, elite and without ammo, would give good points.

[Other Means]

The surprise issue could be given by starting the Germans tired and away from their CO's, possibly. Maybe use an AC rather than a white scout car or jeep as these fold under any fire at all.

Still don't think it's well simulated with the CM engine but it still might be fun.

[DerBlitzer]

Can you design a scenario so that one side's morale can start at something less than 100%? Or does it always have to start at 100? That might be another way to simulate surprise.

[GreenAsJade]

See "Wolf In Sheep's Clothing" from the ROW tournament for how to simulate suprise. Fantastic (if unconventional).

GaJ

[Richie]

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by GreenAsJade:

See "Wolf In Sheep's Clothing" from the ROW tournament for how to simulate suprise. Fantastic (if unconventional).

GaJ

Unfortunately, due to a HD failure it is lost forever. Too bad, really, as I was fond of how that one came out. The opening lines in the AARs, and the private e-mails from the players (especially the allied players) said it all.

[GreenAsJade]

You are KIDDING!?!? :eek: :confused: :confused: :eek: :confused:

You mean nobody had a useful copy!?

You'll just have to make another one!

... anyhow, Chevy, these are the right people to talk to about how it was done.

The basic idea is that you design the scenario so that the forces are set up for the suprise, then *you* play it to the point where the suprise happens (by playing each side hotseat), then the first player gets a movie file that you send them watching the suprise unfold and has to deal with it .... might sound contrived, but the effect was fantastic I can tell you as one of those who got the suprise...

GaJ

[ November 24, 2006, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: GreenAsJade ]

[Hans]

What no one ever sent it by email? Always sad to lose a good scenario.

Since the scenario is lost can someone explain the method used to create surprize?

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by Hans:

Since the scenario is lost can someone explain the method used to create surprize?

GAJ described the basic mechanics of how to create the scenario, or others like it. In a nutshell you are playing the scenario in hotseat mode until you reach a certain point (the "surprise"), then turn the scenario over to two players.

In "Wolf in Sheep's clothing" the theme was a historical raid by a German armored column on a British laager during the Kasserine battles. Following the forcing of the pass the German 10th Pz division pushed north towards Thala, battling the British 6th armored division along the way. During the evening the British began withdrawing into the laager for the night, as was their standard practice. But the Germans didn't want to call it a day. They sent an armored column up the road about a mile behind the last British tanks. Heading the German column was a captured Valentine III, and when this force approached the British lines they assumed it was a column of stragglers and allowed them to enter the laager. The result was complete chaos.

Keep in mind that it can only be done in a tournament-type setting, with the scenario already started and passwords locked. I played the first 10 turns (IIRC) until the moment the German tanks entered the perimeter, then turned it over to the players.

[DerBlitzer]

OK, I'm a little confused. An objective third party plays the game hotseat, and then turns it over to two other players, who play it hotseat or PBEM from that point?

If so, why can't the setup just start at the point of surprise?

[GreenAsJade]

Because during setup the players can move their forces (unless you padlock them all) and can see any enemy forces that would be in LOS.

Also, movement can be important. In this case, the German arriving tank column was shrouded in dust from the leaders... its much more suprising and effective watching a movie than getting a setup...

GaJ

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by GreenAsJade:

Also, movement can be important. In this case, the German arriving tank column was shrouded in dust from the leaders... its much more suprising and effective watching a movie than getting a setup...

GaJ

An important point that can't be overemphasized, at least in this particular case. The challenge was to get a force of 6-8 German tanks and an equal number of HTs inside the perimeter before the Brits knew what was happening.

One option would have been to simply plop them down inside the Brit camp, but that was neither historical nor convincing.

After much experimenting I finally chose a plan that called for a small force of Brit tanks to enter the perimeter about 2-3 turns ahead of the German column. They kicked up enough dust to shroud the lead German tank, in this case the captured Valentine III, whose own advance shrouded the following tanks and HTs.

It took me well over a dozen false starts before I finally got the timing right.

[Richie]

Ummm...

I still have everything that was sent to me...

You want I should email you some stuff Kingfish?

[Kingfish]

By all means, email away. Hopefully you also have the passwords.

[1533X2 Chevy]

Thanks guys, some interesting thoughts.

I haven't yet had much of a chance to work with the scenario editor, but I should be able to take some much needed R&R over the Christmas period.

That said, I can see how difficult it could be to recreate a surprise raid. Note that the Italians did know that the LRDG was approaching Barce on the day of the raid (they had been spotted by a recon aircraft); in spite of that they were still unprepared!

And I take it that the aircraft don't just sit lined up on the ground to be shot-up and bombed??

Now, if I could find some kind person to devise some 30 cwt, India pattern, Canadian built Chevrolet 1533x2s as modified for the LRDG...

[JasonC]

Some design tricks for surprise scenarios -

(1) padlocked set up defenders. Some in the open, many split squads, HQs in houses, transport parked and empty.

(2) some units start in pinned or panicked state. Sleeping units can also be tired and/or weakened. The varied time needed to rally mimics getting prepared. Green quality and night makes for realistic easy panic, occasional friendly fire problems, etc. Attackers can be plus a quality level as well - large quality differentials readily simulate surprise effects.

(3) attackers start at the edge of LOS or effective weapons range, or sometimes closer. Or are given large set up areas without being told some overlap with defender locations. They can come from multiple directions etc.

(I prefer to let the attack plan his attack by making one large set up zone that wraps most of the defense. Avoid "scripting" how the attacker must attack, it is annoying and the loss of control and initiative poorly simulates the command aspects of surprise).

(4) defenders that the attackers should know about can be marked with landmarks or with prominent "holes" in the attacker's allowed set up areas.

(5) empty transport, guns in foxholes in the open, extra HQs to create a variety of vulnerable and high value targets. E.g. your "planes" on the ground can just become trucks with an exit VC. That way any MG AC can disable them or they can "get away", etc.

(6) defenders can also appear as reinforcements at an edge or even right in the middle of a town, to portray arriving or newly ready units during the course of the battle. This puts a premium on speed for the attackers and hanging on and protecting stuff for the defenders etc.

(7) demo style effects can be mimicked with a padlocked TRP and high caliber FO with only a tiny number of shells. For an attack on an ammo dump or what have you. You can have the FO arrive on a given turn if you need to simulate delay. Similarly, very high quality and low echelon FOs can simulate any form of highly responsive or flexible fire support (e.g. I've used crack 81mm FOs to simulate gunships in a Nam scenario).

(8) use only a few flags, let victory turn mostly on KOing high value items. If you make one for the AI, give it small flags to orient on and do not start units mounted and on the map (mounted can enter fine). You can "script" an AI defender by putting troops around 1-3 small flags and having other detachments enter from the edges (or emerge in the middle of a village e.g.) during the battle.

I hope these help. It is perfectly doable and designing a good surprise scenario can be a lot of fun.

[junk2drive]

Try Hans SB Deception 1940

[simovitch]

I did an SAS scenario a while back on the SDII called Operation Snowdrop

All I had to work with was the Jeep MG. I thought the scenario captured the SAS feel OK (if I say so myself).

[Richie]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

By all means, email away. Hopefully you also have the passwords.

Yeah, I sent you the wrong scenario files didn't I...

I'll have to check my back up discs but I'm pretty sure I'd have it. If I had 'Squeezing the Melon' I'd have the files you sent me for Wolf...