French and German language questions

[Hans]

1. German; in American English terrain that is labelled "washboard" is a series of ridges - resembling an old fashion washboard that had such raised ridges - what is the German name, either for the terrain feature or the piece of laundry equipment?

2. French; Chars Chaussers, what is the meaning of this in English, "tank hunters" or "hunting tanks"???

3. A common French term for their adversaries was 'Boche' what term did the German soldiers use to refer to the French?

Thanks

[ParaBellum]

1.) The german term for the laundry equipment is Waschbrett, but I have no clue about the terrain feature.

2.) Chasseurs de Chars are tank destroyers, like the german Panzerjäger.

3.) Franzmänner.

[Dandelion]

1. Waschbrettgelände was actually used for that same terrain type but it will probably cause less confusion if you refer to the terrain as "wellig" instead. Wavy, that is, as in ocean waves.

Cheeriups

Dandelion

[Michael Dorosh]

Another language thread...

Okay, then, here's one that hasn't been asked. How many examples are there of enemy soldiers using a term for their enemy that their enemies also applied to these groups?

For example: the Germans called the British "Tommi", and British reporters soldiers also referred to their troops as Tommy.

However, the example above of a German word for the French does not match the self-same description "poilu".

Everyone that spoke English called the Americans "Yanks" or "GIs", but the Germans called them "Ami"

The Germans called themselves "Landser" - but did anyone else use that term for them?

(Not counting of course the soldier slang words in all languages like frontschweine, stubble-hopper, gravel cruncher, foot-slogger, doughboy....)

The Russians used "Frontovik" - did the Germans? What about "Canuck"?

What terms did the Italians use for their enemies?

[Hans]

It might be interesting to construct a matrix showing what each side called the other.

[Steiner14]

3. A common French term for their adversaries was 'Boche' what term did the German soldiers use to refer to the French?

'Franzmann' (singular) or 'Franzmaenner' (plural) or simply 'Franzose'.

In general we Germans didn't use disdainful names for the enemy.

[Dandelion]

Ah yes, language thread, gotta love em

I agree with Steiner. I cannot recall ever encountering any hatewords in orders or other documents, such as those very common in say French and US orders. The single most common term you meet is "Gegner", i.e. opponent. In East Front documents political terms are to be seen even in army documents, such as The Bolsheviks or The Reds (actually Rotarmisten, but I guess there is no Redarmyists word in English). In enlisted men's correspondence, I have seen a lot of The Others and in the case of the eastern front, Iwan.

Hatewords are common in propaganda pamphlets in 1945 though. These lacked all finesse and were simply outbursts of incoherent nazi rhetoric. They tended to call everyone Jew or Sionist. Even Stalin was called Sionist

Franzmänner is not a hateful term, its comparable with "Frenchies". The non-nickname term is Franzosen, as Steiner points out.

Actually I believe it was the British themselves who started calling their troops Tommys, after the Thomas Atkins (or was it Atkinson?) character in what I believe was a Kipling text. The Germans press first used that as a derogatory term (during the Boer war I think, where they sympathised with the Boer), but it obviously changed entirely with time. The term Tommy is rather affectionate and part of that embarrassing, wholly unanswered Anglophile nerve of the collective German soul, the incensed sense of rejection of which is so easily converted into sporadic bursts of hatred every now and then.

Significantly, in a conversation with a POW, as related in a British War Diary, a German officer called him Tommy until he was upset with him, after which he called him bloody "Engländer". The soldier found it hilarious, since he was an Irishman (or was it Welshman? Cannot immediately recall), but of course Germans back then called all people originating from he Atlantic Islands Engländer unless they were overtly wearing kilts and blowing the pipes (in which case they were Scots, known to be oppressed by the Engländer, and never the equally oppressed Irish or Welsh). So the point of the joke was sort of lost.

The German relation to CW troops is interesting. I don't think I have seen such precisely defined prejudice as that directed against these men, for good and ill. From what I have found, German concepts of CW troops seems to have stemmed from WWI. Mixed wonderfully with romantic ideas. A positive aspect was the bizarre order of 1942 to not lock barrack doors with Canadian POWs in them, because the Germans believed them to be such freeroaming spirits that they would commit suicide if locked up. I'm serious. Also, Canadian POWs were not allowed alcohol even on festive occasion, in any amount. Because like native Americans, and children, they simply could not handle alcohol. And that's official, or was at least offical back then

More tragically, both New Zeelanders and Canadians were reputed to not take prisoners and lots of unfounded stories about these men murdering German POWs circulated during the war. On at least three occasions that I know of, and probably lots more, CW soldiers were murdered in "avenging" acts for deeds imaginary. The almost medieval feud between the 12th SS and the Canadians bore marks of the same misconceptions with several stories of Canadian evil deeds circulating, just like men in the 5th Gebirgs felt animosity toward the Kiwis because of stories of New Zeelanders murdering POWs on Crete. C'est la guerre.

Australians were also reputedly brutal and savage soldiers, but as they left early, I haven't found very many anecdotes about them in texts.

No real nicknames though. Or hatewords. Canadians were simply Canadians and even the New Zeelanders were called that and nothing else AFAIK.

Michael, I've got it. The term "Polack" is a derogatory German term for Pole (i.e. a Polish person). The Polish (non-derogatory) word for Pole is Polak. Thus both called Poles Pola[c]k. Though even the Poiles would be called Gegner. I am not 100% sure about the Polish here, but say 85.

In movies Germans are often equipped with Vietcong type parlance ("degenerate capitalist bla bla") and they'll often use crosswords. To me, wartime German sounds slightly naïve and childish, perhaps it's the same with English for you Anglosaxons. The serious insult "Schurke!" simply does not carry the sting it once did. I guess audiences need to be reminded they fought for an evil cause, but amusing moments arise when they shout "Schwein!", which they do in movies and in certain PC Games with some frequency. Swine was used for luck back then. Like the French use of the Arabic Baraka! Paras would scream Schwein upon landing, to not break any bones.

Well that was sure a lot of text about nothing I have to get a life over here.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Michael Dorosh]

I could read your **** all day, Dandelion, no fooling...

After Dieppe, in addition to your no-locking of doors stuff, I'll remind you of the shackling of Canadian prisoners because one of our bonehead officers, despite official orders not to, took ashore the phone-book sized operations order, in which a paragraph was neatly buried somewhere in the middle outlining that German prisoners would have their hands tied or manacled where possible to prevent their escape or the destruction of their papers.

Naturally, the officer was killed, wounded or plain old abandoned the orders, as they were found on the beach (possibly in a scout car), analyzed by the Germans (analyzing failed plans seems to have been big - they did the same with the Market-Garden operations order that fell into their hands also) and pounced on.

But of course, I digress also.

I've been watching STALINGRAD in the German language, and while I've picked up "Franzose" on my own, as well as some of the abbreviations like HKL ("hauptkampflinie") and EKI (Iron Cross First Class) and "Em Gay" (MG or machinegun) I do have to wonder how much of the language is "Hollywood bull****". (It IS interesting also for an English speaker like me to compare the actual German words with the English subtitles, and especially the dubbing. The dubbing is often completely different from the English subtitles, which are closer to the German but often not very exact).

The clothing and equipment is so realistic one, without knowing better, would presume the rest of it is authentic, but of course knowing better about Canadian/US/British stuff has me turning a jaundiced eye on just about anything regarding Allied troops in WW II. A look at The Longest Day for example would have one realizing quickly that it is not in any way a time capsule of 1940s military clothing, speech, slang, etc.

So from your comments about "schwein" I take it the use of such in that film was overused?

[patboy]

Originally posted by Steiner14:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />3. A common French term for their adversaries was 'Boche' what term did the German soldiers use to refer to the French?

'Franzmann' (singular) or 'Franzmaenner' (plural) or simply 'Franzose'.

In general we Germans didn't use disdainful names for the enemy. </font>

[patboy]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

What terms did the Italians use for their enemies?

???????? I dont know,

but what terms did the Americans use for their enemies ?

It seems GIs used "Yellow bastard" to call Japanese soldiers ;

Navy and Air force pilotes during WWII called enemies Japanese planes to refer with the insignia "Meat ball".

Could you confirm ?

Cheers Pat

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by patboy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

What terms did the Italians use for their enemies?

???????? I dont know,

but what terms did the Americans use for their enemies ?

It seems GIs used "Yellow bastard" to call Japanese soldiers ;

Navy and Air force pilotes during WWII called enemies Japanese planes to refer with the insignia "Meat ball".

Could you confirm ?

Cheers Pat </font>

[patboy]

Thanks for the quick reply Michael. Pat

[Dandelion]

Thank you likewise Michael. Which I guess only proves we both need lives For some reason, what we are doing here is not considered real. IRL always means something that does not happend here. Opens up quite a philosophical perspective I think. Sure feels like I'm typing for real.

Using swine as an insult is a tad bit personal for a combat situation. You don't shout "Molester!" or "Tax evader!" to an enemy soldier. Similarly, the title swine requires a certain, revoltingly disgraceful type of mischief to be earned.

Not that I hold anything against the sweat beasts myself.

When I hear them shout I think of Wolfgang Buddes squadleader Evers, with his eternal "Da haben wir verdammt viel Schwein gehabt!" or just "Schwein!". They made a few really nuts combat jumps together, and after most of them Budde is simply lying halfconscious knocked out on the ground, all is quiet and he's wondering if he broke something and what actually happened, and suddenly he hears from not afar the mutter "Schwein", when Evers realises he isn't badly hurt from the drop. Eventually, this makes you laugh, if for no other reason then relief. Don't know if you read the book but I have a feeling you just might have. Evers is the guy who in the Canadian army would keep saying "You lucky bastard!" to himself and others and never cease to be amazed people are not killed when they are so statistically supposed to be.

I am often surprised when reading UK and US WWII accounts. Because the men sound so... German. Expressions and phrases used seem highly similar. We spoke of sausages before. Sausage, or Wurst, meant (means) "nothing". "Das ist (mir) Wurst" means that something is completely meaningless and uninteresting. The men uttered the word Wurst - among other occasions - when trying to shake a trauma off. Like when a buddy died. Exactly the way soldiers say "doesn't mean a thing" and try to blink away horror or heartbreak by repeating that until they believe in it, in Anglosaxon accounts. German for "whatever" as in "yeah sure, whatever" was (and is) "wie auch immer", another frequently encountered phrase among the soldiers in accounts. As is "something like that" in the ironic sense of "err, yeah, sure, something like that" (so etwas ähnliches). German for BS is quatsch, yet another very frequently encountered word.

But if you want to dig really deep into the darker pits of German, listen in on the submariners in Das Boot. That is about the worst I've ever heard in a movie theatre outside of Hamburg red light districts. There is nothing naïve about that I assure you, and had they been anything but submariners I would have hesitated to believe in the scenes. Fortunately, the English subtitles in the DVD version simply abstains entirely from translating of a single of these horrid jokes and expressions If I retell or translate here, Martin will never ever allow me in here again.

Stalingrad is a good movie, though not focusing on the documentary aspect of the Stalingrad battle or army life. Every man in it is a symbol of an aspect of German society, every scene is a message or question. Most characters are very abstract, or purely symbolic such as the Soviet female. The movie is the visualisation of our domestic debate on the err of our ways. How and why we turned out to be the bad guys when we always thought we were the good guys. My sole disappointment - I am open to debate on that one - is the one simplification I have a real problem tolerating (because it is so common). The People (enlisted men in the movie) are excused, almost apologised, whereas the Establishment (the officer aristocrats) are primarily charged with misguided loyalty and failed responsibilities, and the Party (the military police) have to carry the streak of evil all alone. As I see it, that's avoiding the issue.

I like Die Brücke most of all warmovies. Hits me in the gut in that extremely painful, intense way. Feeling very real. Sort of manages to reach the essence of all questions in a single scene.

Frontschwein yes, a compliment. I thought that was the equivalent of Frontovik? My Russian isn't all that 100. Frontschwein is positive, in sharp contrast to the downright hostile (I'll-kill-you-after-I've-completed-this-insult type hostile) Etappenschwein, but also much unlike nicknames of semi-affectionate type such as Spieß or Zahlmops, or the definately affectionate, almost passionate nicks such as Sani.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

Thank you likewise Michael. Which I guess only proves we both need lives

I took a vacation day, and in between spending an hour at customs (apparently importing 9 Panzerjacke is fine, importing 10 means you are now an importer, for which I must apply for an import license and obtain a broker) and cleaning my apartment (no point putting up a tree and decorations if you can't see the bloody thing) I have time to post...

For some reason, what we are doing here is not considered real. IRL always means something that does not happend here. Opens up quite a philosophical perspective I think. Sure feels like I'm typing for real.

Yes, well, we are also considered "geeks" as well. Funny, that label is also applied to those who wear Star Trek uniforms and attend conventions in them. Can you think of anyone more harmless than someone who identifies with a television show that put forth the notion that humans could live in peace and prosperity with each other and try and put their own moral code forth throughout the universe using logic and an appeal to intellect rather than by force? I guess the "cool" ones are crashing into police cars (as was done here yesterday), drinking themselves to excess, or painting themselves in team colours before starting brawls at the local athletic match...

Using swine as an insult is a tad bit personal for a combat situation. You don't shout "Molester!" or "Tax evader!" to an enemy soldier. Similarly, the title swine requires a certain, revoltingly disgraceful type of mischief to be earned.

There is nice story in the history of the First Special Service Force ("Devil's Brigade") wherein before they embarked for combat deployment, they were presented a beautiful silk colour (flag); a scroll was left unadorned, so as, to paraphrase one of their many illustrious historians, to enable a suitable Force motto to be emblazoned once a Forceman uttered something immortal in combat. Said historian then sadly related that, unfortunately, the closest a Forcement came to uttering something immortal in the heat of combat was "Goddamn Kraut", and therefore, the scroll remained unadorned.

I always envied Sergeant Fury for his ability to be pithy in the heat of a firefight; Marvel Comics were very much different from DC war comics in that respect - the Howling Commandos were very talkative and witty, Sergeant Rock on the other hand was slangly and curt. "Come on you combat-happy Joes" may seem talky, but not in comparison to the soliliquys the cigar-chomping Topkick from Hell's Kitchen was capable of (though some of the longer ones were sometimes in the puffy cartoon clouds denoting inner monologue, which I think Rock rarely did.) But then again, you probably never met either in your youth. You didn't miss much.

When I hear them shout I think of Wolfgang Buddes squadleader Evers, with his eternal "Da haben wir verdammt viel Schwein gehabt!" or just "Schwein!". They made a few really nuts combat jumps together, and after most of them Budde is simply lying halfconscious knocked out on the ground, all is quiet and he's wondering if he broke something and what actually happened, and suddenly he hears from not afar the mutter "Schwein", when Evers realises he isn't badly hurt from the drop. Eventually, this makes you laugh, if for no other reason then relief. Don't know if you read the book but I have a feeling you just might have. Evers is the guy who in the Canadian army would keep saying "You lucky bastard!" to himself and others and never cease to be amazed people are not killed when they are so statistically supposed to be.

I'm afraid I haven't read this, but come to think of it, even in Stalingrad, most of the putdowns are for other German soldiers (in fact, perhaps even all of them) - idiot, schwein, arschloch. Iwan seems to be the worst the Russian soldiers get, especially in the heat of action.

I am often surprised when reading UK and US WWII accounts. Because the men sound so... German.

Do tell!!!

Expressions and phrases used seem highly similar. We spoke of sausages before. Sausage, or Wurst, meant (means) "nothing". "Das ist (mir) Wurst" means that something is completely meaningless and uninteresting. The men uttered the word Wurst - among other occasions - when trying to shake a trauma off. Like when a buddy died. Exactly the way soldiers say "doesn't mean a thing" and try to blink away horror or heartbreak by repeating that until they believe in it, in Anglosaxon accounts. German for "whatever" as in "yeah sure, whatever" was (and is) "wie auch immer", another frequently encountered phrase among the soldiers in accounts. As is "something like that" in the ironic sense of "err, yeah, sure, something like that" (so etwas ähnliches). German for BS is quatsch, yet another very frequently encountered word.

But if you want to dig really deep into the darker pits of German, listen in on the submariners in Das Boot. That is about the worst I've ever heard in a movie theatre outside of Hamburg red light districts. There is nothing naïve about that I assure you, and had they been anything but submariners I would have hesitated to believe in the scenes. Fortunately, the English subtitles in the DVD version simply abstains entirely from translating of a single of these horrid jokes and expressions If I retell or translate here, Martin will never ever allow me in here again.

The book was quite graphic, and I thought this was the only book I've ever read where German soldiers talk this way. I love the story about the sailor taking the used condom home, and his father says "where were you all night, do you know how much I've invested in you?" Whereupon the sailor pulls out his package, slaps it on the table, and says "there, father, you can have your investment back!"

Stalingrad is a good movie, though not focusing on the documentary aspect of the Stalingrad battle or army life. Every man in it is a symbol of an aspect of German society, every scene is a message or question. Most characters are very abstract, or purely symbolic such as the Soviet female. The movie is the visualisation of our domestic debate on the err of our ways. How and why we turned out to be the bad guys when we always thought we were the good guys. My sole disappointment - I am open to debate on that one - is the one simplification I have a real problem tolerating (because it is so common). The People (enlisted men in the movie) are excused, almost apologised, whereas the Establishment (the officer aristocrats) are primarily charged with misguided loyalty and failed responsibilities, and the Party (the military police) have to carry the streak of evil all alone. As I see it, that's avoiding the issue.

Amen!!! Is it true this was a miniseries on German TV later released theatrically? There are many scenes in the movie release that don't make sense (some do, after viewing the English and German language versions as well as the subtitles and getting all three versions....). For instance, Otto being told "You were an officer once" by Hermann. But the scene I think you refer to is certainly an indictment of the wrong people. "I told you when we were at Brest-Litovsk..." "I'm not a Nazi, Otto." "No, you're worse, you officers, you went along with it even though you knew the man in charge was a madman."

I doubt we shall see a movie where German soldiers are dutiful and proud to be in uniform anytime soon; which is too bad since all the veterans I've talked to were indeed proud to have served.

I like Die Brücke most of all warmovies. Hits me in the gut in that extremely painful, intense way. Feeling very real. Sort of manages to reach the essence of all questions in a single scene.

This is on my list of must-sees.

Frontschwein yes, a compliment. I thought that was the equivalent of Frontovik? My Russian isn't all that 100. Frontschwein is positive, in sharp contrast to the downright hostile (I'll-kill-you-after-I've-completed-this-insult type hostile) Etappenschwein, but also much unlike nicknames of semi-affectionate type such as Spieß or Zahlmops, or the definately affectionate, almost passionate nicks such as Sani.

One can hardly think of Sani or Medic being used derogatorily - certainly not when you're holding your guts in with one hand and looking for your rosary with the other....

[ December 03, 2004, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[junk2drive]

I have a RL and I come here to get away from it.

I avoid peng and waffle but do enjoy and learn from some of the better posts.

Thank you guys for giving.

[Steiner14]

Stalingrad is a good movie, though not focusing on the documentary aspect of the Stalingrad battle or army life. Every man in it is a symbol of an aspect of German society, every scene is a message or question.

Stalingrad is an extremely bad movie.

It's a quite primitve political propaganda movie, and has no historical accuracy.

1. the characters are caricatures and no real persons. Almost every sentence in the dialogues is ridiculously and does in no way reflect the feelings, thoughts or real normal dialogues.

2. the whole representation of the Wehrmacht is anti-german and therfore far away from reality. A soldier forcing a doctor to operate or the cowards as being the good guys, while the brave and comradely ones are stupid and navie ones, is not only far away from reality, but also is an evil slander of the own soldiers.

What makes me really angry when i think about it closer, is that the german children of these slandered soldiers, who fought and mostly died, are making such films against their own grandfathers against all historical facts only becasue of political reasons.

If the former enemy or Hollywood is making such movies, is understandable. But the own children?

This movie is an excellent example movie, how german comradeship is devaluated and only practised by stupid Germans fighting for the wrong side.

3. the impression the movie creates, is that the good and symphatic german soldiers are against Hitler, yes are even against Germany, are against winning the war, are for a peace in the east, know already how the war will end, although only a small Schütze Arsch, do in no way believe to defend Europe but have a politically correct opinion.

4. and even in the war-historic aspect the movie fails, because the aspect of the heroic self sacrifice of the 6. Armee, to rescue the 1 million comrades of the Heeresgruppe Süd, is not even mentioned at all.

IMO Stalingrad is one of the worst war-movies, because it's a german production and it's a shame, that germans have that less knowledge or will to show how the german soldier really was but instead spread primitive propaganda.

But on the other hand, what can be expected in a state, where the chancellor does not even visit the grave of his fallen father, only becasue he fought on the wrong side, or the same chancellor 'honoring' (how can such a person honor anyone?) the alliied soldiers, but not the own soldiers...

The movie 'Stalingrad' fits perfectly into such a state.

[Michael Dorosh]

I plan to put up a full review of STALINGRAD at my deutschesoldaten.com site one of these days; Frankly, given Steiner 14's acidic comments and his anti-Jewish sig line, I don't feel inclined to discuss it further with him here. Nonetheless, I'm forced to agree with Steiner's characterization of the film as unhistoric; would love to hear more from Dandelion on that count.

Certainly there is no trace of military organization; the Military Police seem ominpresent, as if the orange-piped Hauptmann was attached to our hero's squad. They are supposedly sturmpioniere, yet their officer (he of the unlucky right side) wears white piping. Feldwebel Pflüger is introduced as being from another pioneer battalion altogether. Müller and Wölk are apparently pioneers also, but then suddenly are NCOs in a Punishment Battalion? Certainly no mention of a Spiess anywhere, though Hans von Witzland is introduced twice as being the "new leader of the First Platoon, Second Company." Of what, it is never revealed...The only film I've seen with der Spiess is, oddly enough, The Great Escape. The Internet Movie Database unfortunately put up a comment that his rank title Hauptfeldwebel is incorrect and is actually an SS title. I wrote in to correct their "correction" but never heard back from them....but a quick look at IMDb seems to reveal they removed the offending "Goof" from their listing.

The film's largest failing is that it relies far too much on circumstance; in the Kessel that encompassed hundreds of kilometres they meet the same MP officer three times, the same general three times, the same Russian boy twice, the same Russian female twice - a rule of good fiction writing is to make maximum use of the same characters, but it is possible to overdo that...

Nonetheless, putting all that aside, it is the only film I've ever seen that captured the feel (as I know it) of the uniforms, haircuts, conversation and actually felt immersive. Cross of Iron was more like Joe Kubert's concept of what the Germans must have been like, but as a stand in for the 1940s Wehrmacht-Heer, it was poorly done. Still, one loves Steiner's gritty dialogue, and even Maximillian Schell's bumbling. I've known real life (there is that term again) NCOs that were just like Captain Stransky - on a mission to prove their superiority. Like Stransky, when the time came to really prove it, they fell far short. Luckily I didn't have a PPSh in my hands.

Being ignorant of German culture, I will never be able to view the film as Dandelion apparently did, which is a shame, I think.

[John Kettler]

For a searing look at the "it don't mean nothin'" in American military use, please see "Hamburger Hill." The scene takes place after the medic has tried to save someone, failed, and is about to crack under this final blow to his shattered nerves. Seeing his plight, his black squad mates step in, chanting the phrase and versions of it with ever growing power and conviction (sucking the reluctant medic into their ritual) while simultaneously performing an elaborate dap. After a time, even the white squad members join in. The intervention is ultimately successful.

Is "REMF" a fair equivalent to the German kettenhunde?

Regards,

John Kettler

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

For a searing look at the "it don't mean nothin'" in American military use, please see "Hamburger Hill." The scene takes place after the medic has tried to save someone, failed, and is about to crack under this final blow to his shattered nerves. Seeing his plight, his black squad mates step in, chanting the phrase and versions of it with ever growing power and conviction (sucking the reluctant medic into their ritual) while simultaneously performing an elaborate dap. After a time, even the white squad members join in. The intervention is ultimately successful.

Is "REMF" a fair equivalent to the German kettenhunde?

Regards,

John Kettler

Kettenhunde is "Chained Dog" and refers to a Military Policeman, so called because of the gorget worn while on duty, suspended from a thick chain. Also an unflattering reference to a canine, naturally.

The German equivalent of REMF was posted above by Dandelion - in English it translates as "Rear Echelon Stallion."

[Kitty]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John Kettler:

For a searing look at the "it don't mean nothin'" in American military use, please see "Hamburger Hill." The scene takes place after the medic has tried to save someone, failed, and is about to crack under this final blow to his shattered nerves. Seeing his plight, his black squad mates step in, chanting the phrase and versions of it with ever growing power and conviction (sucking the reluctant medic into their ritual) while simultaneously performing an elaborate dap. After a time, even the white squad members join in. The intervention is ultimately successful.

Is "REMF" a fair equivalent to the German kettenhunde?

Regards,

John Kettler

Kettenhunde is "Chained Dog" and refers to a Military Policeman, so called because of the gorget worn while on duty, suspended from a thick chain. Also an unflattering reference to a canine, naturally.

The German equivalent of REMF was posted above by Dandelion - in English it translates as "Rear Echelon Stallion." </font>

[Dandelion]

Michael

There are many ways of looking at the Stalingrad campaign of course. The most interesting to me - if I had to pick one book - is the book of Heinz Schröter. He was the Kriegsberichter of the AOK 6 and was able to interview hundreds of participants. Before publication he sent the manuscript to friends of his for "co-authoring" to which they agreed, namely Gen. Fangohr (Ia of 4 PzA), Gen Koller (Ia of the Luftwaffe liason staff in Stalingrad), Gen Schulz (Ia of the HG "Don"), Col Selle (Pifü of AOK 6) and LtCol Toepke (Ib AOK 6). In addition he kept and use the pictures taken by AOK 6 Kriegsbildberichtern (they all died in the battle, Gehrmann, Heine, Herber, Jesse, Mittelstaedt). What you get from this is of course not the final truth in any sense, and not a word from the Soviet side and thus no good analysis on the campaign as a whole. But you do get a fascinating and absolutely heartbreaking insight of what the participants thought happenend, and how they felt about it. As there are a lot of staff officers involved, you get a lot of figures and numbers in the parcel, shedding light on a lot of things I didn't realise. Radio logs are also used in the book, i.e. transcripts of all transmissions made, including Luftwaffe air recon, with clockings. The book was financed by German industrialists immediately after the war, some of them overtly pro Nazi, some vehemently anti Nazi. The book is called "Stalingrad - bis zur letzten patrone". Don't know if it has ever been translated, but I am convinced you'd read it cover to cover unable to stop for sleeping or eating. And its a thick book...

Good maps to, as a game related note there.

The men were not aware of the higher purpouse of their sacrifice. They were all waiting for the promised relief, all the way up the chain of command, and when it became clear this would not arrive, that news stayed high in the CoC for obvious reasons. The men trusted their leaders and thought they would be rescued. But in fact they were abandoned.

The Germans at home were clear on the sacrifice bit, because they read the papers and listened to the radio. In the movie, the men hear the radio speech declaring them already dead.

If you follow papers day by day, the phrases of heroic sacrifice appear close to the end of the disaster, when the loss of AOK6 was identified as inevitable. There was a need to construct meaning and save political face.

Of course, from a military point of view, finding great joy in the fact that it will take the enemy time to kill a quarter of a million of ones men - thus it will take some time before he can get to the guys running behind the guys being slaughtered - is, er, interesting. I find no accounts of anyone who bought the lie. Not even Hans Ulrich Rudel (a Stuka ace, war hero and convinced Nazi to his dying breath in 1982) believed in it, according to his own book "Trotzdem". And he was bordering halfwit, believing in just about anything anyone in authority told him.

The message is fairly straightforward in its essence. Blind faith in your government, your officer, media or in anything at all will not only get you killed - that's the acceptable part for the rest of the world - it will also make you commit the crimes you sought to avoid with your pursuit of higher ideals. The scene is set to Stalingrad because it was a completely meaningless loss of life, serving no military purpouse of any kind, utilising to the extreme the servile, gullible and collective mentality of predemocracy Germany.

The characters appearing are abstract and not "real". Characters in movies never are. Dialogues are not "normal". In a comparable movie, the Thin Red Line, characters are also not real and dialogue is on a philosophical level quite beyond any everyday conversation. That doesn't mean they do not reflect real people, feelings, thoughts and ideas. Just that these are portrayed and delivered in a far more deliberate and thought-through manner than normally possible.

It also does not mean they speak in strange ways. Even while pondering the higher meaning of life, Pvt Witt retains his rural southern US accent making him feel very close and real. Its the same in Stalingrad. The men look and sound real, only the structure of the story reveals it is a philosophical debate rather than documentary.

There is a real situation behind the accusation you mention. The "No, you are worse" dialogues that you mention. This is a conversation between General.d.A. Seydlitz and a battallion commander exactly five days before the end. Seydlitz is trying to comfort the man who no longer has a battallion with the fact that he did not vote for the present government, and the man answers that he is worse than the "Braunen" (translating to Brownies doesn't feel right), since no party official could gotten his men out of their foxholes to fight, only he could do that, and it was he who did it. This documented conversation has been used again and again, when debating the responsibilities of leadership. Not just the war, corporate leadership too, and so on.

So Michael I do think you can safely watch the movie knowing that the environment - everything from haircuts to equipment, language to insignia - has been meticulously prepared (its not possible to recreate all details, which you as reenactor will be familiar with). The drama that takes place is not documentary but a conversation with you as a viewer. Some symbols are obvious such as the female, some are very subtle such as the relation between the enlisted men. The scene in which the major requires heroic self sacrifice from a soldier ("You owe me") has been very much debated (in the intrested medias that is), and this scene might not strike one as so strong. But pondering the continuation of that scene, you get all kinds of ethical questions coming back on you regardless of what stance you take.

The next last radio transmit from AOK 6 headquarters in the southern enclave was logged exactly 0600 and read "Die 6 Armee hat kapituliert. Hoffentlich gibt dem Führer das Ende in Stalingrad Veranlassung, in Zukunft mehr auf die Ratschläge seiner Generale zu achten".

[The 6th army has surrendered. Hopefully the end in Stalingrad gives the Leader reason to listen to advice from his Generals in the future].

In German media, a falsified message was printed instead:

An den Führer!

Zum Jahrestag Ihrer Machtübernahme grüßt die 6. Armee ihren Führer. Noch weht die Hakenkreuzfahne über Stalingrad. Unser Kampf möge den Lebenden und den kommenden Generationen ein Beispiel dafür sein, auch in der Hoffnungslosigkeit nie zu Kapitlurieren, dann wird Deutschland siegen. Heil mein Führer!

Paulus, Generaloberst. Stalingrad den 29. Januar, mittags.

[To the Leader

On the yearsday of Your seizure of power, 6th army salutes You. The Swastika still flies over Stalingrad. Our struggle might show the present and future generations that if you never surrender, even in hopeless circumstance, Germany will win. Long live my Leader!]

Yes that sounds equally corny in German as in translation.

The northern enclave last logged transmit was 1406 hours february 2nd, from radio Fck 1913 (transmit 1711), saying "In Stalingrad keine Kampftätigkeit mehr".

The very last transmit logged from Stalingrad as a whole? Well it was a Luftwaffe transmit not from within but from over Stalingrad, with no political edge to it, February 2nd 1235 hours (excuse my lousy translations throughout this text):

"Cloud height five thousand metres, visibility twelve kilometres, clear sky, single small clouds, temperature minus thirtyone degrees, over Stalingrad smoke and red dust. Wetterstelle meldet sich ab, Gruß and die Heimat." It was received by armygroup Don HQ.

In our time information is easy to come by, and questions can be asked, issues debated. Ignorance is a choice that requires some determination to stick to. My grandfather and three of his brothers were killed in the war, we are now a very small family like so many others. I honour him by feeling his absence. Not by pretending to speak in his name.

That last section was not adressed to you Michael of course.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Kitty:

Dorosh is right. Even if he doesn't email me anymore.

This report relates to a message you sent with the following header fields:

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Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 08:32:44 -0700

From: Michael Dorosh <madorosh@shaw.ca>

To: Debbi Parker <kittyusmc@hotmail.com>

Subject: Quit yer bellyachin'

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[Michael Dorosh]

Dandelion - Brownies indeed!

I've read Letters from Stalingrad (translated of course) and one of my professors in German history at University had a father who was a "sergeant major" at Stalingrad.

I especially like this:

The characters appearing are abstract and not "real". Characters in movies never are. Dialogues are not "normal". In a comparable movie, the Thin Red Line, characters are also not real and dialogue is on a philosophical level quite beyond any everyday conversation. That doesn't mean they do not reflect real people, feelings, thoughts and ideas. Just that these are portrayed and delivered in a far more deliberate and thought-through manner than normally possible.

Captain Miller in Saving Private Ryan was something of an Everyman as well - and while Tom Hanks reportedly refused to deliver a flowing speech to Tom Sizemore and instead replaced it simply with "Oh brother" when talking about duty and sacrifice, he makes up for it in his two major scenes at the radar station - the crying scene (perhaps the best male crying scene ever filmed) and his speech on "the more men I kill, the further from home I feel" - and I believe he refers to his men men, not the Germans.

I think that is where Stalingrad succeeded where Cross of Iron failed. Steiner was wonderful but I don't know that an audience could identify - God, least of all in the 1970s - with a brutalized killer ("nothing we haven't seen before") who doesn't know where his family is and says little about his prior life. Compare to Rohleder, the "stupid farmer" who likes his rowboat because it makes his wife too tired to nag. Who can't relate to that...

I see you've made my reading wish list (and translation wish list) longer than ever. I am still trying to get the time and money to obtain DEATH OF THE LEAPING HORSEMAN which is apparently an excellent source regarding 24 P.D. in Stalingrad.

My grandfathers didn't fight or even serve, apparently, too old and too many dependents. One of their brothers went to Kiska, as a conscript, and was one of the 14,000 draftees we sent to NW Europe. He came back from the war, went to an Army hospital for a year with Tuberculosis before he could be discharged, and died in the 1950s of cancer in his early 30s, about 15 years before I was born. I guess I don't know what I'm missing - which is supposed to be preferable to missing out, but I'm not sure either situation has much speaking for it.