gibsonm Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Hi, I’m trying to find anyone with links, references, etc. for 12th SS “Hitlerjugend“ Pz in mid ’44 (post OVERLORD) - trying not to re invent the wheel. Basically I’m after ORBAT‘s (or ToO&E for our American cousins) for its main units and sub units so I can convert to CMAK structures. I need accurate figures of units strengths too (not 100% parade ground strengths). Something like “the Recce Bn was at 60% in late june ’44 and consisted of X companies each of which had ...” would be ideal. Hope to hear from someone soon. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 This may be of use 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David I Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 Kingfish, I don't know if that site helped Gibsonm, but it sure enlighted me. Good one. DavidI 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigduke6 Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 Ditto. Wow. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 gibsonm, Am winging it here, so may not get this spot on. Have you looked at or read STEEL INFERNO by Reynolds? I think that may be useful to you. I was going to suggest the Panzereil site, but all it has that seems potentially useful is a brief history of the Tiger battalions in both the east and the west. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undead reindeer cavalry Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 Originally posted by John Kettler: Am winging it here, so may not get this spot on. Have you looked at or read STEEL INFERNO by Reynolds? I think that may be useful to you.Meyer's two volume history of 12th SS would be a lot better buy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 Nice site Kingfish! You really are the Man! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 The division history of 12th SS is excellent and extensive. I think I have recently seen an English translation at Borders. If so, this is a must for anybody interested in the Normandy battles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 The English translation is not as good, I think. All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 Originally posted by Redwolf: The division history of 12th SS is excellent and extensive. Which one? I think there have been several? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 Hubert Meyer - Kriegsgeschichte der 12. SS-Panzer-Division "Hitlerjugend". How can they screw up the translation :confused: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonm Posted January 12, 2007 Author Share Posted January 12, 2007 Originally posted by Andreas: The English translation is not as good, I think. All the best Andreas Assuming of course that you can read German 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonm Posted January 12, 2007 Author Share Posted January 12, 2007 Firstly, Thanks for the responses - reflects the helpfulness of the BoB community. To refine the request somewhat, I’m not looking to recreate historically accurate engagements, but more a generic feel for the Division as it fought the Canadians around Caen. So I don’t require accurate historic information on specific units strengths on specific days about how many Panthers were in I. Abteilung on date X when it attacked Canadian Bn Y at location Z (if such an attack ever took place). From the site above, I know that the Division had “66 Panthers on 10 June” then its feasible that 17 of them say may have been available for an attack or at least were in the Division’s AO. Similarly the infantry information on that site helps me with the weapons available and the possible artillery spt they may have had. What I need to confirm is information like: The structure of the Pz Abteilung (17 = 2 x HQ and 3 PL of 5 each?) and similarly for the: Infantry Company Specialist Companies Recon Bn I guess I need a wire diagram like the one on the site but at Bn / Coy / Pl level rather than the supplied Regt / Bn level. Or can I just go with the structures supplied in CMAK purchase screens? Again thanks for the interest and responses to date. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 OOB-o-rama 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonm Posted January 13, 2007 Author Share Posted January 13, 2007 Kingfish, Another good site but he doesn’t seem to differentiate “German” into Wehrmacht or Waffen SS. Let alone if 12th SS had unique structures that might be different again to the “norm”. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 relevant: http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=30;t=003887#000004 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 Originally posted by gibsonm: Or can I just go with the structures supplied in CMAK purchase screens? If you aren't looking to recreate a historical engagement, as you say, then you're probably better off relying on the purchase screen OOB but with units at less than full strength. The 12th SS absorbed a hell of a lot of punishment during its time on the line, and as with every formation on the defensive the infantry suffers the most. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hetzer38 Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 This should be useful: The Oob's and General Organization of the 12th SS-Panzerdivision "Hitlerjugend" Greetings, Hetzer. (Hmm, I think I should re-read "Panzermeyer's" book "Grenadiere"... ; - ) EDIT: Thank you very much Kingfish ! I really missed the "l". Sorry for that one! [ January 13, 2007, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 Originally posted by Hetzer38: This should be useful: The Oob's and General Organization of the 12th SS-Panzerdivision "Hitlerjugend" Greetings, Hetzer. (Hmm, I think I should re-read "Panzermeyer's" book "Grenadiere"... ; - ) Check your link. I believe it is missing the 'l' on the end of /html. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 Hetzer38 (and gibsonm), A most interesting site and peculiarly organized and presented, notably the combat section in which no combat was described but in-depth loss figures of some sort are presented. The OOB was very detailed, but you'd better know your German unit organization--in depth. The alleged British war crime was pretty disturbing, too. What I found, though, that was really useful was this article, taken from a source I suspect Michael Dorosh would approve, CANADIAN MILITARY HISTORY. http://home.att.net/~SSPzHJ/Haller.html Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hetzer38 Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 This "Flames of War" scenario is yelling to be converted to a CM-scenario: Bretteville-l’Orgeilleuse: Kurt Meyer’s Night Attack ...briefings, TOEs, historical info + a little Battlefield-map... Take also a look at these RAPID FIRE! scenarios (pdf format) Bretteville The Canadian Push on Carpiquet Airfield ...briefings, TOEs, historical info + good Battlefield maps... And last but not least, another very detailed Oob: 12. SS-Panzer-Division 'Hitler Jugend' (pdf format) Regards, Hetzer38. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 Originally posted by Hetzer38: This "Flames of War" scenario is yelling to be converted to a CM-scenario: Bretteville-l’Orgeilleuse: Kurt Meyer’s Night Attack ...briefings, TOEs, historical info + a little Battlefield-map... Already been done, although it is a CMBO scenario. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hetzer38 Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 Edit: Ups, I didn't know that, Kingfish. ... but while we are at it... REPORT NO. 50 - HISTORICAL SECTION (G.S.) ARMY HEADQUARTERS - The Campaign in North-West Europe - Information from German Sources - Part II: Invasion and Battle of Normandy (6 Jun B 22 Aug 44) (pdf format, 381 pp) REPORT NO. 54 - HISTORICAL SECTION (G.S.) ARMY HEADQUARTERS - Canadian Participation in the Operations in North-West Europe, 1944 (pdf format, 253 pp) Regards, Hetzer38. [ January 14, 2007, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 Kurt Meyer's 'Grenadiers' is a good book! I'm about 3/4 the way through it... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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