Tobruk wargame anyone?

[crowbar]

With the imminent arrival of CMAK Does anyone else remember and rate this game highly?

I have to say it was my favourite wargame bar none - and I include squad leader et al - for a company size game it had what seemed a perfect balance of detailing what was important - the process of getting a hit on an afv - giving a good idea of scale in a boardgame - even infantry combat

ok I m rambling : )

[Firefly]

Remember it? I've still got it in a cupboard somewhere .

[chashm]

It was the second war game I learned to play, right after Afrika Korp (AH). To say I loved it is a huge understatement. Almost thirty years later, I still play it.

I agree with you whole heartedly :cool:

[CMplayer]

I had it and never played it. It looked like no fun to play, way too much dice rolling and book-keeping.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Firefly:

Remember it? I've still got it in a cupboard somewhere .

Hell, I've got two copies of it. I bought the second one when the first was packed away in another state and I couldn't get to it for over a year.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by CMplayer:

I had it and never played it. It looked like no fun to play, way too much dice rolling and book-keeping.

I agree that the dice rolling and bookkeeping could get tedious enough to discourage all but the truly dedicated. But the painstaking design work was unprecedented in board games up until that time. If ever a board game cried out to be translated onto computer, this was the one. I still don't know how we managed to get through the '80s and '90s without that happening.

My most severe gripe against the game, and it may have killed off some sales as well, was the blah mapboard. Although probably appropriate enough for the Gazala battles the designer set out to model, they limited the game to just those and did not allow other fights in other kinds of terrain.

Michael

[aka_tom_w]

yes

it was the first war game like that

that I ever owned

I still have my copy now over 30 years

old

and YES it was a HUGE book keeping

nightmare.

that one and Wooden Ships and Iron Men were the REALLY ugly games for book keeping as EVERY round was recorded and the result of every round fired and any possible damage had to be individually recorded.

I would say ALL new players to CMAK should play a scenario of Tobruk BEFORE they play CMAK on the computer just to see HOW truly ground breaking and earth shattering the tranisition to a computer game is. (Um that does not sound right..... I mean the computer MAKES everything so simple in CMBO or CMBB and in CAMK, BUT in the old days there were counters and boards and hit charts and dice and THEN there was ALL the book keeping on top of it.

I guess it just means we are all board game geeks here.

I am Still Playing Mega Supremacy on a large map and board game right now, you know 5-6 guys get together and you attack each other (cuts deal, back stab form alliance...you know...) and roll dice? like the "old" way!

Its still FUN!!

-tom w

[ October 22, 2003, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Maj. Battaglia]

A friend in high school had it, and it truly was groundbreaking because it was a computer game without the computer. I say that because in e.g. Squad Leader, your squads were abstract and hits on AFVs were abstract. In Tobruk, hits, hit location, penetration were all modeled. Number of troops in a squad was modeled.

It was the CM system, in a simplified way, on cardboard. When CM finally came out, I thought perhaps Tobruk had provided as much inspiration as SL/ASL.

I think because it was so time consuming it never made it to other theaters of the war and other terrain types: I don't think it was popluar in other words. But a grog's dream, it certainly was!

By the way, it is commonly available on e-bay for pretty cheap.

[Zitadelle]

I remember seeing the boxed set, but have never seen the box opened or the game played. From the discussion of modeling AFV hits and penetration, it sounds like a variant of Yaquinto's (sp?) _Panzer_ or _88_. Now, those were great board wargames- combining elements of miniature rules and Squad Leader. I guess like CM on a tabletop.

[sidenote: if I remember correctly, a gun hit in Panzer/88 was a very rare occurance, unlike CM]

As for sheer paperwork, WS&IM didn't set the upper bar. That gameset abstracted attacks to a broadside. For really nasty, gun hit determination try _Ironclads_. That game modeled individual guns and you rolled for hit, damage, and if applicable special, critical hits and penetration damage. Determining the damage inflicted by a broadside from the US Frigate Minnesota or the HMS Warrior would take 15 minutes alone.

[kgsan]

Yep, in anticipation of CMAK, I dug out my old game when I was home visiting the parents this summer. It was a detailed design, but to be honest I played Squad Leader a lot more. SL's abstractions made for an easier faster paced game and of course it covered the entire ETO. Still, I enjoyed Tobruk, particularly the much more detailed representation of armor combat. Like another poster, Avalon Hill's Afrika Korps was my first wargame and ever since I've always been interested in games covering the North Africa campaigns.

[CMplayer]

I think I'd probably like it now, to judge by everyone's descriptions of it.

Youth is lost on the young, *sigh*.

[ggallagher]

Aha!...I knew it was redone!...here's the link

http://www.criticalhit.com/Tobruk2.html

[ October 22, 2003, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: ggallagher ]

[Michael Dorosh]

I just picked up a copy of the original on ebay, just to see what the fuss was about!

I remember fondly seeing AH games on the shelf of the local toy store, before I had ever dreamed of actually buying them. I was always struck by the graphics on the back of the boxes; the overhead views of the equipment (Luftwaffe was another game whose box had me mesmerized when I was just a wee lad), the stark colours.

I was at our local games store on Monday; the shelves and boxes did nothing for me. (sigh) Certainly the prices left me cold! 100 dollars for ASL modules.

[EZPickens]

These were really more miniatures-rules than those that we would normally associate with a board-wargame, IMO.

The maps were devoid of terrain, and the vehicles were painfully slow. IIRC, the movement rates were something like this:

Matilda: 2 hexes/turn

PZKW IIIh: 3 hexes/turn

Stuart: 4 hexes/turn

James Dunnigan once wrote that a good wargame always provides players with the illusion of movement; this one doesn't.

But, this was no real issue for most players because it took over an hour, in scenarios involving lots of armour and anti-tank tubes, just to do all the die-rolling.

Resolving combat included die rolls to:

Check for a hit

Check for where the hit occurred

Check for penetration and effect

And most of the crew-served weapons in the game could fire more than one-round per turn, so that you had to go through the above process, not just per vehicle, per turn, but for each round that was fired! :eek:

Tobruk really struck me more as an excercise in AFV theory, rather than a game that was to be played and enjoyed.

Still, though, you could learn a lot about desert tank-battles by wading through all it's muck.

One of the lessons that was readily apparent was that some of the British formations, their armoured regiments and brigades, were horribly unbalanced in terms of combined arms.

Particularly, in the early tank engagements, the UK/Commonwealth player finds himself with hoardes of tanks mounting only 2lb guns and .303 MG's.

What was woefully lacking in this combo was an effective HE weapon (the 2lb didn't sport a high-explosive round) that could neutralize the DAK anti-tank guns (which would eat the Crusaders & Honeys alive).

Further, the 2lb/.303 combo was shorter ranged than the German 50mm/7.9mm weapons.

But, then the Grant's arrive, and the game changes character somewhat, shall we say, abruptly!

My two cents,

EZ

BTW: Does anyone remember what the ROF was for that darned Bofors AA-gun in Tobruk? I think that it was like 14 shots per turn...or was it 23?

[ October 22, 2003, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: EZPickens ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by EZPickens:

BTW: Does anyone remember what the ROF was for that darned Bofors AA-gun in Tobruk? I think that it was like 14 shots per turn...or was it 23?

Somehow the number 35 pops out of the back of my head, but that seems high. I think that must have been per minute and the per turn rate was 17, which sounds more reasonable. Still a lot though, especially if you were on the receiving end!, and a lot of dice rolls too.

Michael

[Snarker]

Had not thought about that game in ages - I have Tobruk packed away somewhere. I also believe I have a monster of a board game (4'x6' map or so), that covers the entire NA campaign in such detail you needed a few players per side. It was an SPI game, and the one thing that sticks in my mind was it had rules for raids such as attempts to poison wells and blow ammo dumps. Never got enough of a commitment from anyone to actually play it.

[EZPickens]

Thanks for responding, Mike (17 sounds about right).

I am really excited about CMAK precisely because it promises to do "Tobruk" in a way that simply wasn't doable 25 years ago.

I sure hope that the designers paid careful attention to British doctrine when they were creating the scenarios.

The failure of the Brits to provide effective HE support frequently allowed the DAK to prevail in armoured engagements in which they were numerically inferior.

Case in point:

Three or four years ago, I played a TS West Front scenario, blind, with a friend. It was an armour heavy scenario (British Armoured Bde vs reinforced DAK Pz Bn) with the Germans (myself) defending.

Order of business #1 was to go looking for his 25lb's.

Item #2 was to suppress them with my own off-map 105mm Kanone.

Item #3 was to over-run them with a company of armoured cars that I had sent FLYING down a track far off on my opponents flank.

Item #4 was childs play, simply slaughtering a Bde of 2lb-armed tanks advancing against my numerically inferior armour and its accompanying PAK support.

After the game had ended, my friend asked me what had inspired me to focus my entire game plan on taking out some guns that were several kilometers to the rear.

I explained to him the quick-calculus of these battles, that without his arty, he couldn't suppress my AT guns, and that his tanks, unable to effectively engage my PAKs without HE or potent anti-personnel fire of their own, would then be liquidated, one platoon at a time, trying to close on, and engage my armour.

It was my experience with Tobruk that provided me with these insights, so while it may not be a great "GAME," it certainly is quite the learning tool.

Ah, Sidi Rezegh cometh, I can't wait!!!

EZ

[ October 22, 2003, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: EZPickens ]

[HeinzBaby]

Snarker, I have that boardgame you're talking about, Its by S&T called "Campaign for North Africa", the best on the subject IMHO.

A hex was12km? with a forwards and rear deployment system. counters usually represented Bns, each strenght point of Inf equalled 100men, one plt of armour or one bty guns, every weapon had its own combat values/morale etc and was played over 5 3ftx4ft? maps. The game covered *everything* and was a logistical nightmare...the OB was bloody well detailed too.

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by EZPickens:

Item #3 was to over-run them with a company of armoured cars that I had sent FLYING down a track far off on my opponents flank.

Heh, ye olde edge-hugger blitz. I used to do that in CCII (with just one AC) to hunt down the other guy's mortar team.

If you imagine a continous front extending off both map edges (like in most CMBO situations) it would be totally gamey, but in many NA settings it might be perfectly reasonable, especially if you're near the Southern flank.

[Runyan99]

Originally posted by EZPickens:

James Dunnigan once wrote that a good wargame always provides players with the illusion of movement

What the hell does that mean?

[CMplayer]

Strangely enough, the game Go, which is arguably a very static game, also produces an illusion of movement. And there, every piece has a movement factor of 0!

[crowbar]

IIRC, the movement rates were something like this:

Matilda: 2 hexes/turn

PZKW IIIh: 3 hexes/turn

Stuart: 4 hexes/turn

James Dunnigan once wrote that a good wargame always provides players with the illusion of movement; this one doesn't.

No Movement?

dont you remember the illustration on the back inside cover showing the size of a tank in a hex?

to be honest that matilda would have to shift some to do the 2 hexes

yes it was very close to miniatures rules - thats what I went on to for the next few years while waiting for a tobruk plus or something to come out in the shops. aint the internet great! now I find out theres a yahoo usergroup on it and all these supplements to it - though the prices suck a bit!!!

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by crowbar:

to be honest that matilda would have to shift some to do the 2 hexes

AIR, hexes were 75 meters across and turns were 30 seconds. So that works out to 18km/h or roughly 12mph. That sounds about right to me over open desert. Of course, if the game had been designed with smaller hexes, a closer approximation to the true speed would have been possible.

Michael

[Jim Dunnigan]

The "illusion of movement" bit came from factor analysis we did on all the games. Those with smaller movement factors were the ones that were less popular and sold less well.

Focus groups confirmed that.

IBM said we couldn't do factor analysis on an 8 bit mini. But we could if you let the machine run all weekend to get results.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Jim Dunnigan:

The "illusion of movement" bit came from factor analysis we did on all the games. Those with smaller movement factors were the ones that were less popular and sold less well.

Focus groups confirmed that.

IBM said we couldn't do factor analysis on an 8 bit mini. But we could if you let the machine run all weekend to get results.

Welcome to the forum, Mr. Dunnigan...I couldn't begin to count the number of times your name appears somewhere in my apartment. Books included.

[ October 23, 2003, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]