The Panther gun's incredible ability to penetrate armor

[JonS]

No. You amuse me. Also, I think you'll find that the physics behind armour penetration has little to do with nationality. You don't have to be "an expert on the Canadian Army" to be good at physics.

Your rather feeble attempt to cast me as the villian for 'systematically parsing the documentary' falls rather flat. If you can't critically examine sources (what am I saying? We already know that you can't do that), it behooves you little to snipe at those who can.

Also, at a more general level, you are a liar. It's always a good idea to challenge liars at every turn.

Regards

JonS

BTW - how's the head? There's a big earthquake brewing.

[John Kettler]

JonS,

For someone who has been officially warned by BFC, do you think it's terribly bright, never mind appropriate, to engage in prohibited name calling?

Guess your amusement's important enough to risk outright banning!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Wicky]

While you're at it don't forget to ask BFC to ban your housemate for calling you "lazy" and a "laughingstock"

[John Kettler]

Wicky,

Good to know you're keeping up with Earth Groans! As for my housemate, he doesn't fall under the same rubric JonS does. Nor did I ask BFC to ban JonS for his latest attack. Rather, I pointedly reminded him of the rules he (and all of us) agreed to abide by.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Wicky]

Funny as every three days someone 'predicts' California is about to disappear down the plughole but amazingly it still ploughs on. You do a great running commentry as if you are Marvin the hypochondriac paranoid android - Entertaining reading of character's aches, groans and woes that would've done Douglas Adams fiction proud.

Of course you never tell a porky pie, as your various unique dysfunctions and dubious sources provide a handy excuse when your deceits pointed out.

Originally posted by John Kettler:

Wicky,

Good to know you're keeping up with Earth Groans! As for my housemate, he doesn't fall under the same rubric JonS does. Nor did I ask BFC to ban JonS for his latest attack. Rather, I pointedly reminded him of the rules he (and all of us) agreed to abide by.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Wicky,

So "nice" to know you find so much misery entertaining. Hope it's as much fun at your panoramic life review!

See particularly "a" under Characteristics of a Life Review for an explanation of my allusion.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research24.html

Dannion Brinkley had one such experience and found it so harrowing that when he came back to life after being struck by lightning while indoors on the phone, he went into hospice work, teaching the dying how to prepare for and face death. He was qualified, having himself revived only after being pronounced dead, covered with a sheet and sent to the morgue! Here's a precis of what he says in his first book, SAVED BY THE LIGHT.

http://www.dannion.com/main.htm

He got to experience all the misery he'd caused, from being the crippled boy whose crutches he'd kicked out on the school yard, to being the hapless villagers in South Vietnam when he blew up their dam and drowned the lot of them in their beds. Every nasty thing he ever did to someone else he got to experience--as the victim!

I believe that what you're doing to me isn't going to be fun at all when your day comes. If you think I'm making stuff up, just ask your Creator/Higher Power, etc. for 24 hours as I experience them.

With your Earth sensitivity, metaphysical and amusement needs now addressed, do you have anything substantive to contribute to the primary thread topic?

Regards,

John Kettler

[Guest Mike]

He got to experience all the misery he'd caused, from being the crippled boy whose crutches he'd kicked out on the school yard, to being the hapless villagers in South Vietnam when he blew up their dam and drowned the lot of them in their beds. Every nasty thing he ever did to someone else he got to experience--as the victim!

Palpably BS - he didn't drown.

[John Kettler]

Stalin's Organist,

I'm not talking about having the experience literally, but of feeling everything as it was felt by his victims, as it happened to them, meanwhile knowing full well that he caused all this havoc himself. Restated, what he dished out came back and bit him. The experience was so traumatic, so shocking, healing and profound that he died as one man and in a very real sense returned as another, forever changed.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Wicky]

Thank you John I don't believe I've ever received a Gypsy curse before. I will take extra care in thunderstorms from now on.

Evidence based research in nursing suggests "...humour can enhance creativity, problem solving and memory. Johnson (1990) suggests using humour as an innovative method for teaching sensitive topics such as aging, death, dying, grieving and suicide....emergency workers say it helps them focus on the task at hand rather than focussing on their emotions or the awful nature of certain events (Moran, 1990)."

I wonder what your guilty secret is that causes you such individual anguish and to lash out/call for banning/curse at those that don't share your bizarre beliefs.

[John Kettler]

Wicky,

I haven't cursed you or anyone else. I merely pointed out, in a particularly telling way, that your "humor" is at my expense, that it's hurtful and insulting, and that knowing this, for you to attack me and others like me, when we're suffering torments I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy, is a poor strategy if what goes around really does come around, as Mr. Brinkley's experience suggests.

I have an excellent sense of humor, but yours invariably seems to come out of my hide and never at your expense. Why is that? Am familiar with how Norman Cousins cured himself of an "incurable" illness by watching a slew of Marx Brothers films

and of the concept of "Laughter is the best medicine." I long ago learned that sometimes the only sane course when faced with impossible, terrible situations is to laugh.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Axel]

This conversation is beyond my level.

[Wicky]

"I haven't cursed you or anyone else"

Originally posted by John Kettler:

As for the "fools," you should see the savaging I'm getting in the GDF books that suck thread. If karma's real, those guys are toast!

Be careful what you write as it might come back and haunt you

Originally posted by John Kettler:

If the large Nazi saucer with a Panther turret upside down beneath it never existed, then would someone kindly explain to me how a U.S. citizen photographed it over Zanesville, Ohio in 1967?

Back on subject, maybe Kettler's New Age hellfire and damnation Panther was responsible for destroying multiple Shermans in a previous incarnation...

[ May 23, 2007, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: Wicky ]

[The_Enigma]

Nor would I hold a live Stielhandgranate 39 in my hand until the grenade went off and expect to survive, let alone with all limbs and fingers intact, yet Screaming Eagle Donald Burgett had exactly that happen to him while playing "hot potato" in the hedgerow with a German counterpart in Normandy. The blast knocked him out, blew off his clothes and left him temporarily deaf. Not exactly what the physics would predict, is it? Read his CURRAHEE! for the story. Care to test the physics personally?

well the physics do predict it ...

iirc there was some test somewhere which showed that the German stick grenade exploded in a nice little arc. Iirc it was the sides explode outwards but the top and botton dont do as much in the exploding department.

Although, like hell i would try it to see if it were true

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by the_enigma:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Nor would I hold a live Stielhandgranate 39 in my hand until the grenade went off and expect to survive, let alone with all limbs and fingers intact, yet Screaming Eagle Donald Burgett had exactly that happen to him while playing "hot potato" in the hedgerow with a German counterpart in Normandy. The blast knocked him out, blew off his clothes and left him temporarily deaf. Not exactly what the physics would predict, is it? Read his CURRAHEE! for the story. Care to test the physics personally?

well the physics do predict it ...

iirc there was some test somewhere which showed that the German stick grenade exploded in a nice little arc. Iirc it was the sides explode outwards but the top and botton dont do as much in the exploding department.

Although, like hell i would try it to see if it were true </font>

[The_Enigma]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by the_enigma:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Nor would I hold a live Stielhandgranate 39 in my hand until the grenade went off and expect to survive, let alone with all limbs and fingers intact, yet Screaming Eagle Donald Burgett had exactly that happen to him while playing "hot potato" in the hedgerow with a German counterpart in Normandy. The blast knocked him out, blew off his clothes and left him temporarily deaf. Not exactly what the physics would predict, is it? Read his CURRAHEE! for the story. Care to test the physics personally?

well the physics do predict it ...

iirc there was some test somewhere which showed that the German stick grenade exploded in a nice little arc. Iirc it was the sides explode outwards but the top and botton dont do as much in the exploding department.

Although, like hell i would try it to see if it were true </font>

[JonS]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I don't recall the source - may have been INFANTRY ACES OF THE REICH.

Try Leo Kessler or Sven Hassel.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JonS:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I don't recall the source - may have been INFANTRY ACES OF THE REICH.

Try Leo Kessler or Sven Hassel. </font>

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by Wicky:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John Kettler:

If the large Nazi saucer with a Panther turret upside down beneath it never existed, then would someone kindly explain to me how a U.S. citizen photographed it over Zanesville, Ohio in 1967?

Back on subject, maybe Kettler's New Age hellfire and damnation Panther was responsible for destroying multiple Shermans in a previous incarnation... </font>

[JonS]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JonS:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I don't recall the source - may have been INFANTRY ACES OF THE REICH.

Try Leo Kessler or Sven Hassel. </font>

[JonS]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organist:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wicky:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John Kettler:

If the large Nazi saucer with a Panther turret upside down beneath it never existed, then would someone kindly explain to me how a U.S. citizen photographed it over Zanesville, Ohio in 1967?

Back on subject, maybe Kettler's New Age hellfire and damnation Panther was responsible for destroying multiple Shermans in a previous incarnation... </font>

[John Kettler]

Wicky,

The "fools" you cite was someone else's statement which I was parroting so that the context of what we were discussing was clearly understood. Thus, you have taken the information completely out of context

in your ongoing effort to defame me. Regarding the second part, ha ha!

the_enigma,

It is an offensive grenade in its standard form, with only minimal metal (tin can thickness) covering the burster charge and fuze assembly. Perhaps he had it a couple of feet over his head in mid throw when it exploded. That would've put him out of the primary blast and sidespray at least, while still guaranteeing a way too exciting time. No idea how he kept his hand intact, though.

Michael Dorosh,

Only slightly less crazy than takio binta, a harrowing toughness building "game" played by Japanese aviation cadets using hobnailed boots as boxing gloves for blows to the face of an opponent at rigid attention. Blows were exchanged from alternating facing ranks until the DI called a halt. See Saburo Sakai, SAMURAI.

the_enigma,

The standard American grenade was a defensive grenade which not only generated lots of nasty fragments, but because fragmentation phenomena were only poorly understood, tended to break up into a lot of small stuff, which didn't carry, and some big stuff which could wound tens of meters away. The external scoring did nothing other than make the grenade easier to grip securely.

Stalin's Organist,

I did, and there followed a flurry of links indicating the hotly disputed status of said pictures. The evidence of such a beast is by no means dependent on the Zanesville pics, for both engineering drawings and photos also exist. What I find especially interesting is how remarkably well the armament schemes on the various German saucer designs correspond to practices observed in AFV development, where something better today is better than the super version way off in the future. Thus, the designs show standard German ordnance fitted, with remarks indicating that exotic stuff is planned for later. How exotic?

Beam weapons! In U-977, the skipper of the boat that showed up some three months after the war in Argentina reports having to refuse an invitation by an SS friend to attend firing trials of "Death Ray" because he had to go to sea. Farrell's THE S.S. BROTHERHOOD OF THE BELL presents evidence that the Germans live fired what we'd call a disintegration ray against several hundred rats in 1944, vaporizing the lot, and that self-same Kraftstrahlkanone is listed as the planned armament for some big German saucer craft.

In the case of conventionally armed saucers, though, the sequence is reversed. Instead of a more powerful weapon on an old chassis, we have a standard weapon on a radical new frame, waiting for the super weapons to complete development.

For example, if I've got a fighter type saucer and you have a P-51, would I rather have a beam weapon on my fantastically maneuverable saucer or an old school cannon? Beam weapon! But with that kind of performance edge, it makes sense to field the saucer now, arming it with a pair of 30mm Mk 108s, while the beam weapons are readied for deployment.

True, not as fantastic as I would like it to be, but I can still rip your P-51 apart at will. For one, it can't stop suddenly or turn at right angles, whereas I can do both and a lot more.

I've previously posted links to the online version of Farrell's earlier REICH OF THE BLACK SUN and Stephens's HITLER'S SECRET SAUCERS where, if you're really seriously into advanced WW II technology, you'll find some astounding things, to include accounts of combat trials of some terrifying aerial weapons. Also, the not yet out issue of ATLANTIS RISING (PDF's up) has a stunning article I didn't write illustrating how Italy became a major player in the German advanced weapon projects. It concerns eyewitness testimony

and period, age confirmed documents regarding a top secret cabinet level Italian group called RS-33 which was charged with hiding the existence of and extracting the technical secrets from a crashed ET craft which fell on Italy in the early 1930s. This goes a long way toward providing a context in which to evaluate the presence of Italian aeronautical engineer Giuseppe Belluzzo on one German saucer team (Belluzzo-Miethe-Schreiver disk) and of Italian technical expert Renato Vesco at the underground joint German-Italian F.I.A.T. plant at Riva del Garda near the Swiss border. The Italian Roswell Incident, if you will, put Italy in a great technical position when Germany embarked on a similar course following a reported ET crash in Bavaria circa 1937.

JonS,

The Russians were still training troops in overcoming tank fear using similar methods during the Cold War. Even we used overhead live fire on our combat assault courses.

The story of the grenade horseplay reminds me of two stories, one told by Hogg in his GRENADES & MORTARS regarding a British offensive grenade with a Bakelite case. Some genius deemed them to be perfectly safe for live training in MOUT, so guys would cheerfully chuck these things at each other

with a reassuring "Quite safe you know, old boy!"

This went on until one fine day the grenade landed just so and fired the sizable lead ball in the all ways fuze right into a luckless trooper.

The other concerns my now retired brother George, who, during basic, was with many of his fellows having a hard time staying awake during the lecture portion of the grenade course. Realizing this, the DI stripped off his uniform jacket and tee shirt, revealing an astounding patchwork of angry scars covering his entire torso. The DI, you see, in his younger days had been a victim of a grenade accident and had been peppered by the tiny pieces of square section piano wire in the U.S. frag grenade of the Vietnam War. Thereafter, concentration in the class was remarkable!

That said, knock off the name calling!

Regards,

John Kettler

[ May 24, 2007, 03:20 AM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[Guest Mike]

Good grief....I never realised it was so bad........

[JonS]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

The Russians were still training troops in overcoming tank fear using similar methods during the Cold War. Even we used overhead live fire on our combat assault courses.

What's your point? What do you think my point was?

The story of the grenade horseplay reminds me of two stories, ...

More off tangent BS from you. What a surprise.

[JasonC]

Orbital... Mind... Control... Lasers...

In aisle 4. Stat.

[z-warfare]

Unbelievably entertaining.