AT overkill: too much of a good thing?

[Doodlebug]

I recall reading a long time ago about a Matilda tank commander who reportedly kicked his gunner for repeatedly missing an Italian M11/39 he was engaging at point blank range. Later it apparently transpired that the gunner wasn't missing but the AP shot was in fact going in one side and out the other. I have no way of knowing if the above story is true or not but it did raise for me a question about high powered guns and very thin skinned targets. Is it conceivable that this situation could occur where the attack/defence is completely out of proportion? I visualise it being possible with AP shot if it connected with nothing substantial (engine block breech block etc) along it's trajectory but AP shell? Exactly how much resistance is necessary to trigger the fuse on a typical AP shell? Could that too simply go in one side and out the other or indeed detonate beyond the target?

[Michael Emrys]

I don't know of any problem along those lines with land vehicles; somebody else may. But it was certainly a problem with naval AP shells fired at non-armored targets like destroyers. The problem was not that it would not trigger the detonator, but that the latter, having a delayed fuse, would not be slowed down and the shell would pass right through the ship before going off.

Michael

[flamingknives]

There was a discussion last year about this sort of thing. The main bone of contention was Tigers skipping AT shells, but I forget what the topic title was. There was some data provided about how much plate was required to set off an 88mm AP shell.

[Bigduke6]

The Soviets did a test with a captured TigerII in 1944 at the Kubinka proving ground. Among other things, they shot an 88mm round at the front of the turret at about 500 - 800m., I forgot exactly. The round went through the front of the turret armor and out the back. Through and through. The strike was close to the roof weld but nevertheless you could get through and through shots even on very thick armor if the conditions were right.

Early tanks were probably more subject to this type of hit for several reasons, among them the smaller AP rounds in the early period of the war, the thinner armor like you said, and the more stuff that got jammed inside a cubic meter of tank as time went on, as desigers tried to save space and increase protection.

[flamingknives]

88 Vs M3 halftrack?

I can't find that thread, but I'm sure that involved Mr. Tittles.

[Doodlebug]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

88 Vs M3 halftrack?

I can't find that thread, but I'm sure that involved Mr. Tittles.

Hmmm. It's always a state of continual hostility between me and search functions. Either 10 gazzillion results or..... nowt.

Find damn you. Find.

[MikeyD]

About the Matilda incident, remember the 2 pdr is solid shot. No boom, no nothin - unless you hit something explosive inside.

In the rare times I've done a little pistol/rifle shooting, after firing at that darned distant tin can I sometimes aim for the board its resting on just to see some movement! Afterwards, I pick up the can and am surprised to see 5 clean holes through it.

[Abbott]

About the Matilda incident, remember the 2 pdr is solid shot. No boom, no nothin - unless you hit something explosive inside.

Yes, spalling is the killer with solid rounds.

[JasonC]

What fuse? Who needs a fuse? These tank rounds have energies in the millions of joules. They don't need to explode, hitting something is quite sufficient. Do you think strapping a kid's toy cap to a sledgehammer makes any difference to a person you hit over the head with the sledgehammer? But it "explodes" - who cares? But the round might go straight through - yes indeed, and if you personally are shot with a full powered rifle, the round will go right through you, too. Does this make you think it won't hurt you?

[GreenAsJade]

I don't know anything about the realism, or whether this kind of stuff is actually modelled in CM, but it _appears_ to be. I've just had a remarkable run with Stuarts, where time after time a shell goes in one side and out the other without the crew even batting an eyelid! If this is consistent, it makes Stuarts much better than their specs suggest. (In CM, that is, not necessarily in real life).

GaJ.

[GreenAsJade]

Energy _alone_ is not going to determine whether a shell KOs a tank.

If the shell has the same amount of energy when it exits as it had when it went in, then it's entirely possible that the tank doesn't care.

With a sledgehammer, it's not the energy it starts with that matters, it's the fact that it efficiently transfers that energy to the head.

For all I know, neutrinos have astonishing amounts of energy, yet they go through me all the time...

GaJ.

[Doodlebug]

Originally posted by JasonC:

What fuse? Who needs a fuse? These tank rounds have energies in the millions of joules. They don't need to explode, hitting something is quite sufficient. Do you think strapping a kid's toy cap to a sledgehammer makes any difference to a person you hit over the head with the sledgehammer? But it "explodes" - who cares? But the round might go straight through - yes indeed, and if you personally are shot with a full powered rifle, the round will go right through you, too. Does this make you think it won't hurt you?

Careful Jason. You'll get me up on my soap box. That line of argument will raise my favourite query about behind plate effects for shot compared to shell in the game. AP shell is the big killer in this game.

[flamingknives]

2pr. shells have about 300kJ at the muzzle.

The differences between AP shot and shell, especially for lower calibre guns, are quite well documented.

[Hensworth]

From what I've seen of WWII tank interiors, there isn't much room for a projectile to pass through it and not hit something quite painful, either to man or machine. So shells routinely passing through vehicles without ANY effect would seem strange to me. The effect not being instant and total destruction would not seem strange.

[SpitfireXI]

This was apparently a problem for Marine M4 crews versus Japanese tanks. So much so that Marine M4's were reportedly firing HE at Japanese tanks in order to 'killl the tank.

[dalem]

-WARNING: ANECDOTAL ZONE BEGINS-

William Craig's Enemy at the Gates has a great eyewitness anecdote of a German ATG commander watching his gunners put a shell right through the turret of a T-34; passes right through and explodes outside the turret. After which the tank stops and the crew bails out.

So maybe the only thing it needs to do is damage the morale of the crew, or have a chance to.

-dale

-ANECDOTAL ZONE ENDS-