S.A.S. jeeps

[simovitch]

Yes, i've searched the forum and read all the comments and laments. here's mine:

Way to produce a game based on small unit actions in North Africa and not include the SAS jeeps with at least a twin-vickers mount and plenty of ammo.

I wanted to design a quick little scenario covering the ambush on Stirling's column during Operation Snowdrop. The fakey jeep MG's ran out of ammo by turn 7 .

Oh yea... otherwise BFC I do love this game!

[junk2drive]

Stuart Recce late has two MGs with 40 ammo and holds a team inside armour protected.

Or one of the many ACs?

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Nah, the white scout car is a better fit IIRC. But yeah a bit of an oddity not including a SAS jeep of some kind. Problem probably is that there never was a 'SAS jeep'. They bolted so many weapons onto their jeeps that BFC would be hard pressed to find a typical loadout to include, though I would've suggested a twin Vickers'K' and a .50 though awatercooled Vickers, Boys, MG34 etc were common too.

*edited after checking*

Yup, it's the White SC with a .30 and a .50 which seems the best candidate. And with light armour perhaps simulating the ad-hoc bullet stopping gear stapped on. You lose 10mph compared to the jeep but it's the closest match. If you think it's still undergunned use the Staghound AA which has twin .50s but they are in a turret which is a down side. As fast as the White but way too much armour.

[ April 30, 2005, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Elmar Bijlsma ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Standard caveats apply - the SAS represented what - less than 1 percent of the British order of battle in North Africa?

And didn't participate in standard CM-type battles (ie capture the flag or destroy enemy soldiers in large numbers). CM wasn't designed to simulate commando operations, parachute operations, glider operations, or amphibious operations.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

CM wasn't designed to simulate commando operations, parachute operations, glider operations, or amphibious operations.

Which raises the question of whether CMx2 will be able to comfortably depict such operations. Clearly there is an audience for a game that does that.

Michael

[jeffsmith]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

CM wasn't designed to simulate commando operations, parachute operations, glider operations, or amphibious operations.

Which raises the question of whether CMx2 will be able to comfortably depict such operations. Clearly there is an audience for a game that does that.

Michael </font>

[Lt Bull]

Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma:

...Problem probably is that there never was a 'SAS jeep'. They bolted so many weapons onto their jeeps that BFC would be hard pressed to find a typical loadout to include, though I would've suggested a twin Vickers'K' and a .50 though awatercooled Vickers, Boys, MG34 etc were common too...

Seems the SAS weren't the only ones who wanted more firepower for their jeeps. Here is a reference to twin Vickers on jeeps earmarked for the British para drop at Arnhem taken from here.

"While firing the same cartridge as the BREN or the Vickers Medium Machine Gun (.303), the 'K' gun had a much higher rate of fire (950 rounds per minute) and was air cooled so it was much easier to use dismounted. Maj. Gough had hoped to equip each jeep with, at least, a twin mount; but he was turned down due to concerns over transporting sufficient ammunition."

Lt Bull

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

CM wasn't designed to simulate commando operations,

You're just still holding a grudge after that commando coastal raid in Norway scenario we played...

(you know, the one where the commados had Stuart tanks and the ROE allowed, nay encouraged, us to fire Her Majesty's naval artillery right into the Norwegian city)

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by CMplayer:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

CM wasn't designed to simulate commando operations,

You're just still holding a grudge after that commando coastal raid in Norway scenario we played...

(you know, the one where the commados had Stuart tanks and the ROE allowed, nay encouraged, us to fire Her Majesty's naval artillery right into the Norwegian city) </font>

[CMplayer]

Who else would it have been? Yeah, I think it was you. It was a while ago. Last CMBO game I played iirc.

[Michael Dorosh]

Was that the one by Kanonier Reichmann that purported to be the Vaagso Raid but looked nothing like the terrain, had nothing like a correct order of battle, and required the Germans to manage huge fleets of trucks while you got all kinds of Stuarts running around in my rear area? If so, I pretty much just hit RUN for everyone, then GO! I remember some fighting by the fish cannery in which I did some damage to your assault boats, but the rest of the scenario seemed - uninspired.

[MikeyD]

Yeh, there was a bit of a hubub about the CM jeeps mounting .50 cal Brownings while the polygons displayed .30 cals. But we couldn't get CM to budge on downrating the jeep mg in patch.

On the bright side the .50 cal's perfectly capable of K.O.ing light arrmor (especially Marders), which gives them a Boyes AT rifle eqivalent.

In CM you could produce a useable SAS/paratrooper scenario if you carefully design the scenario and play against the AI. Against a live opponent you can't really simulate the all-important element of surprise.

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Was that the one ...that purported to be the Vaagso Raid but looked nothing like the terrain, had nothing like a correct order of battle, and required the Germans to manage huge fleets of trucks while you got all kinds of Stuarts running around in my rear area?

Yeah that's the one. It was also at night, despite the Vaagso fighting mostly being in the daytime. Still I noticed how you put your heart and soul into your stubborn defence, but finally fell to the awesome power of my twin Vickers K sporting jeeps (cleverly modelled by Stuarts).

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Was that the one by Kanonier Reichmann that purported to be the Vaagso Raid but looked nothing like the terrain, had nothing like a correct order of battle, and required the Germans to manage huge fleets of trucks while you got all kinds of Stuarts running around in my rear area? If so, I pretty much just hit RUN for everyone, then GO! I remember some fighting by the fish cannery in which I did some damage to your assault boats, but the rest of the scenario seemed - uninspired.

Nope. I've never designed a scenario remotely close to what you've described. I believe the (in)famous "Brian" of Bren tripod fame did however.

Regards

Jim R.

[Michael Emrys]

That could explain many things then.

Michael

[CMplayer]

I thought it was CapitalistDogInChina.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma:

Nah, the white scout car is a better fit IIRC. But yeah a bit of an oddity not including a SAS jeep of some kind. Problem probably is that there never was a 'SAS jeep'. They bolted so many weapons onto their jeeps that BFC would be hard pressed to find a typical loadout to include, though I would've suggested a twin Vickers'K' and a .50 though awatercooled Vickers, Boys, MG34 etc were common too.

*edited after checking*

Yup, it's the White SC with a .30 and a .50 which seems the best candidate. And with light armour perhaps simulating the ad-hoc bullet stopping gear stapped on. [snips]

H'mm. I don't know what "ad-hoc bullet-stopping gear" you think the SAS added to their jeeps, but modelling them as armoured would, I think, be entirely wrong. I don't see jerry-cans doing a great job of ballistic protection. While one occasionally sees people talking about "SAS armoured jeeps", no special operations jeeps in service with SAS or PPA were ever armoured that I've heard of.

Likewise, I believe the idea that the SAS strapped random weaponry to their vehicles according to taste has, I believe, no basis in fact. Dave List, a PRO researcher specialising in special forces whose name has appeared on the credits of more than one BBC programme, told me that there was a standard scale of issue which was pretty well adhered to. Annoying I cannot now recall what it was, but ISTR something like a single K-gun forward and a twin K-gun aft, with one 0.5 car per troop.

All the best,

John.

[CMplayer]

I could swear I saw a photo of an SAS armored jeep on one the sites someone linked to here. It was patrolling ahead of the front, i.e. behind German lines in Italy, iirc, and the armor consisted of an iron or steel plate attached to the windscreen. The driver had to look through a viewing slit.

[simovitch]

This is the badboy I'm looking for. with plenty of ammo.

[CMplayer]

Here's the uparmoured one, at least according to this site. I misrembered; instead of a viewing slit, the driver has bulletproof glass above the steel plate. The only uparmouring appears to be forward.

By late 1944 the SAS were operating behind German lines in Europe. Further modifications to the jeeps included the use of armour plate with bullet-proof glass screen at the front and a wire cutter fitted to the front bumper of some vehicles.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jeep_man/sasjeep.htm

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

Likewise, I believe the idea that the SAS strapped random weaponry to their vehicles according to taste has, I believe, no basis in fact.

That statement surprises me, as I have seen SAS jeeps with an astounding variety of armament attached. But this was in NA. Maybe by the time they were operating on the Continent, they had a more standardized issue.

Michael

[JonS]

Originally posted by simovitch:

This is the badboy I'm looking for. with plenty of ammo.

uncanny

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John D Salt:

Likewise, I believe the idea that the SAS strapped random weaponry to their vehicles according to taste has, I believe, no basis in fact.

That statement surprises me, as I have seen SAS jeeps with an astounding variety of armament attached. But this was in NA. Maybe by the time they were operating on the Continent, they had a more standardized issue.

</font>

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

However, I have to say I can't find any piccies of SAS or PPA jeeps equipped with anything other than K-guns and Brownings, with the possible excpetion of something in the background in one of the well-known set of desert shots (the ones with David Stirling and Ed wossname, Campbell?) which might be a captured Breda but I can't tell from the tiny amount of weapon showing.

I think Vickers and Brownings are what I have seen as well, but in various numbers and mountings. Which, where, and how many seems to have been left to the personal preferences of individual vehicle crews.

Arthur Swinson's "The Raiders" says the LRDG favoured the Breda 8mm (when they could capture enough ammunition for it) over their own Lewis, but that I think would refer to the weapons mounted on their Chevrolet 30-cwt trucks.

The LRDG seem to have been much more ecclectic and idiocentric even than the SAS and PPA. I think they must have used nearly every type of MG in the theater at one time or another, also Boyes ATRs and 2" mortars.

Michael

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by CMplayer:

Here's the uparmoured one, at least according to this site. I misrembered; instead of a viewing slit, the driver has bulletproof glass above the steel plate. The only uparmouring appears to be forward.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />By late 1944 the SAS were operating behind German lines in Europe. Further modifications to the jeeps included the use of armour plate with bullet-proof glass screen at the front and a wire cutter fitted to the front bumper of some vehicles.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jeep_man/sasjeep.htm </font>