Different MOVE command for CMX2

[Nidan1]

In CMAK the new dust cloud feature was greeted with a lot of enthusiasm, but later on dust clouds caused by movement and impacting shells created a whole new set of issues for players, i.e. intermittant LOS for moving vehicles as well as stationary units.

Could there be something like a SLOW MOVE command added for vehicles, that would cost the player in speed, but minimize or eliminate the dust clouds created by movement in the desert and on other dry surfaces.

I remember seeing an historical photo of a road sign somewhere in Normandy that read; "5MPH... DUST BRINGS SHELLS."

[Michael Emrys]

That raises the interesting—to me—question of how well that worked in real life. For wheeled vehicles, slower speed does indeed reduce dust thrown up into the air. But I don't know if the effect is quite the same for tracked vehicles. Tracks seem to pick the dust up and then shed it as they go over the return rollers (or the tops of the road wheels in the case of Christie-type suspensions). I suppose the tendency to do this depended on specific track shoe design, but the point is that the dust is being raised a meter or so into the air and allowed to fall back to the surface, which is stirring it up pretty well anyway. Of course, increased speed could only aggravate the situation. The precise physics of this question must be interesting.

Michael

[Ace Pilot]

There's never a dust grog around when you need one.

[YankeeDog]

I think a lot of us are hoping the present move orders structure will be ditched entirely in CMX2, and instead some kind of SOP structure will be used that allows the TacAI to make up it's own mind about how fast it should be moving based on the orders given, the tactical situation, and the immediate ground conditions.

For example, specifically wrt this issue, you might give vehicles a "Stealth" SOP setting, which could be set to "Low" "Medium," or "High." Vehicles with higher Stealth might automatically slow down when crossing dusty ground.

At least, that's what I'm hopin' for. . .

Cheers,

YD

[Vadr]

bump

[dalem]

Dust is going to form a cloud in proportion to both the grain size of the particulate and the atmospheric qualities of the air column into which it is placed.

I would hazard a guess that dust clouds in the desert were/are noteworthy because of a combination of very fine particulate size and a heated air column. It would seem reasonable that a particle of sufficiently fine grain would settle very poorly in such conditions, thus contributing to a highly visible cloud effect.

Any truly Arid condition would lend itself to creation of such vehicle dust clouds, but clearly a true Desert environment would tend to have a higher proportion of extremely fine-grained particles available and the atmospheric conditions to suspend them for a relatively long time.

Speed of the vehicle is relevant because the faster the vehicle, the higher the particulates are thrown into the atmospheric column. Given local conditions it probably makes sense that there is a threshhold speed above which grain size and atmospheric conditions tend to yield visible clouds.

-dale

[llama]

I can put up with the dust problem, what really gets on my wick is trying to move a column of vehicles down a road. If BFC are going to do anything about/with move commands please let them give us a follow and/or road move command.

Cheers

[JonS]

Originally posted by dalem:

I would hazard a guess that dust clouds in the desert were/are noteworthy because of [snips]

fairly flat horizons probably helped too.

[Redwolf]

I really hope all that move/hunt/hulldown/fast/scoot and whatnot business will be replaced by a simplified speed control and SOPs.

[Michael Emrys]

I kind of like having lots of move commands.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by dalem:

Dust is going to form a cloud in proportion to both the grain size of the particulate and the atmospheric qualities of the air column into which it is placed.

I would hazard a guess that dust clouds in the desert were/are noteworthy because of a combination of very fine particulate size and a heated air column. It would seem reasonable that a particle of sufficiently fine grain would settle very poorly in such conditions, thus contributing to a highly visible cloud effect.

Any truly Arid condition would lend itself to creation of such vehicle dust clouds, but clearly a true Desert environment would tend to have a higher proportion of extremely fine-grained particles available and the atmospheric conditions to suspend them for a relatively long time.

Speed of the vehicle is relevant because the faster the vehicle, the higher the particulates are thrown into the atmospheric column.

Given that the clouds rose to heights many multiples of the height that the vehicles could or did throw them, I have my doubts on just how influencial vehicle speed would be. It would appear that once you got the particles into the air at all, they just took off on their own. Speed might influence the density of the cloud, however. But then again, the number of vehicles moving in close proximity would probably have a much greater effect.

In any event, the vehicles had such a narrow range of speeds they would have been traveling at, that it seems to me that this discussion is rather trivial. Not many vehicles in the desert would have been capable of exceeding 20-25mph in the desert, and few would voluntarily have traveled less than 10-15mph unless they were having to pick their way through bad terrain.

Michael

[tar]

I kind of like having lots of move commands.

I would bet that a single move command with several selectable charateristics would provide more flexibility and be simpler at the same time.

For example, Move with variations for

o Speed

o Stealth

o Alertness

o Use of Cover

This would then provide a matrix of effects on speed and level of effort required. Assuming only 3 choices for each attribute you end up with over 80 combinations....

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by tar:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I kind of like having lots of move commands.

I would bet that a single move command with several selectable charateristics would provide more flexibility and be simpler at the same time.

For example, Move with variations for

o Speed

o Stealth

o Alertness

o Use of Cover

This would then provide a matrix of effects on speed and level of effort required. Assuming only 3 choices for each attribute you end up with over 80 combinations.... </font>

[tar]

Potentially, yes. But the alternative is to have a couple of points out of this space arbitrarily chosen.

For example, there is Advance = High Speed + Moderate? Use of Cover + High Alertness.

Run = High Speed + Low Cover + Low Alertness

Perhaps the set of choices should be more limited. I could see Speed, Cover and Stealth being the main ones, with perhaps 4 speed ranges: Slow, Normal, Fast, Sprint.

[Tim Hughes]

My background is quantum field theory rather than soil mechanics But the following comes to mind:

The crucial issue for influencing the height and longevity of the dust cloud is the radius of the particles making it up.

(Very loosely) the force pulling the particles down (gravity) depends on the mass, hence radius cubed, of the particles, whereas the force resisting this - air resistance - depends on the cross-sectional area, hence radius squared (also the velocity, but that's another story).

So, the ratio of force down/force up is proportional to the radius. For large particles (say people, or cats) the force up is pretty well negligible for speeds less than several tens of metres per second and they accelerate downwards at the usual 9.81m/s^2. For small stuff with large area/mass ration, say a paper airplane, the force upwards can pretty well compensate for that downwards at even low velocity so the plane flies (rather than plummets as a sheep does).

Back to dust clouds. One of the major determinates of particle size in earth/soil is the moisture content - wet stuff sticks together better as the water can act like an adhesive (again very simplified). Wet clods of earth thrown up by tracks will drop straight back down again with almost no air resistance. Fine grains of sand will return to the ground much more slowly. Similarly, any tendency of hot rising air to lift particles up is only going to be effective where the upwards force exceeds that of gravity - this will only be possible for small particles.

Go to the beach, throw up a handful of dry sand from above the high water mark and a handful of the wet sludge from where the water is washing back and forth. The wet stuff comes straight back down unaffected by the wind (except if there's a gale blowing) whereas the dry stuff (a) falls back more slowly; and ( is easily blown downwind.

I haven't checked, but (if Charles is doing his stuff) dust clouds should be a lot less pronounced when the weather is wet.