Fredrock1957 Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 Hey All Playing a great operation vs AI (Chris F - Battle Between Swift Rivers)( Here is the post I left) and on the third battle I receive reinforcements... one is a 76mm Arty Spotter with 240 rds. So I place him (within the setup guidelines of battle 3) and bang I get hit right there first turn of that battle with HE.... So I says to myself... since I saved last turn.. I will put him somewhere else... not moving anyone else.. they are still in the same place... hit go... Wham... HE right where the spotter is.... did the same thing again.. different spot for the Arty Spotter.... Wham.... same thing again... Whats up wit dat... All three times Spotter was out of LOS/LOF... now how did the AI know he was there... "Good Intelligence" I guess.... Just wondering if anyone else has noticed this -FR 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 Fredrock1957, Just so you know, it is customary when discussing scenario specifics to post what's known as a spoiler warning. This is to alert those who are trying to retain scenario security so that they can avoid reading what they shouldn't. The usual drill is to do this SPOILER WARNING!!! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! then go down a ways and make the post. That said, you may want to a) rename your thread so that people will know right away what it's about and/or E-mail the scenario name, problem description, game files and passwords to support@battlefront.com, if you think this is a possible bug. Chris F. will need to supply his password to the same E-mail address. If the game's over, simply get it from him and include it in the package for submittal. This'll help BFC see exactly what's going on. Hope this helps. Regards, 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 Originally posted by Fredrock1957: Hey All Playing a great operation vs AI (Chris F - Battle Between Swift Rivers)( Here is the post I left) and on the third battle I receive reinforcements... one is a 76mm Arty Spotter with 240 rds. So I place him (within the setup guidelines of battle 3) and bang I get hit right there first turn of that battle with HE.... So I says to myself... since I saved last turn.. I will put him somewhere else... not moving anyone else.. they are still in the same place... hit go... Wham... HE right where the spotter is.... did the same thing again.. different spot for the Arty Spotter.... Wham.... same thing again... Whats up wit dat... All three times Spotter was out of LOS/LOF... now how did the AI know he was there... "Good Intelligence" I guess.... Just wondering if anyone else has noticed this -FR CMBB with an 88 (ghosts of Napoleon). I can move it where I want - it receives incoming like crazy with deadly accuracy. And there is still a KV2 in that op. Savegame available. Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredrock1957 Posted April 1, 2004 Author Share Posted April 1, 2004 Thanks for the Help John Kettler... First off I am not posting any spoilers.... except maybe I got an Arty Spotter... Second off if you read my thread it says I was playing the AI... Not Chris F... who is the scenario designer... Actually he is looking for feedback on his scenario thus the link to The Proving Grounds Discussion Area for that Scenario Third I only have the starting point of the 3rd battle for BFC to check (but they dont have the time based upon all the other threads I have read here)..... So basically I was asking if anyone had seen this before.... I hope I didn't piss anyone off being so offensive and such a newbie.... :eek: I was just looking for an answer!!!! Next time I will ask elsewhere ... Thanx -FR 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredrock1957 Posted April 1, 2004 Author Share Posted April 1, 2004 Thanks Joachim!!!!! Gotta look and see if the Arty Spotter is the biggest ticket unit I got.... -FR 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooz Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 Funny that you mentioned "Ghosts of Napoleon"... I was playing the AI as the German and I noticed something similar; no matter where I placed my 88 on the map the AI would hit it with an opening turn barrage. I tried four times to place the 88 at different places on the map. Even while at the extreme map edge, out of all and any LOS/LOF the AI barrage landed on this 88. If I tried to move the 88 with a "fast move" order the AI saddled my prime mover with a 14 second delay (why?). Yep, all four times the 88 got whacked. No matter what. Thus perplexed I continued with the op (shameless plug here ) without my 88. Yep, I agree Fredrock--what's up with this? I'd like to know but I don't think this can be explained away with anything but a bug problem. :mad: I doubt that CMBB will get a fourth patch. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredrock1957 Posted April 1, 2004 Author Share Posted April 1, 2004 Thanks Tooz Me being Stunad I forgot to mention that it is CMAK... oh thats the forum.... But I do wonder why this happened.... Thank god I am playing 13 PBEM's thus my human opponents dont have the AI and its Fuhrungsabteiling Ic... Thanks for the input -FR 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 BFC swears on a stack of Bibles that the AI does not cheat, and strictly speaking that is most likey true. But there have been indications that have popped up over the years that suggest that information may "leak" from one part of the program to places where it ought not to go. I think you guys may have found one for sure. This same kind of thing has been mentioned before IIRC. Sending a saved game file to Support would be a Good Thing. Even if for some reason it can't be fixed in the existing game engine, it wouldn't be a bad idea to alert BFC that this kind of thing can happen and they need to watch out for it in coding the new engine. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: BFC swears on a stack of Bibles that the AI does not cheat, and strictly speaking that is most likey true. But there have been indications that have popped up over the years that suggest that information may "leak" from one part of the program to places where it ought not to go. I think you guys may have found one for sure. This same kind of thing has been mentioned before IIRC. Sending a saved game file to Support would be a Good Thing. Even if for some reason it can't be fixed in the existing game engine, it wouldn't be a bad idea to alert BFC that this kind of thing can happen and they need to watch out for it in coding the new engine. Michael I'll send mine to support or ask Andreas to do that after he checked it. I thought the special problem of the 88 is that it is locked in place like a bunker and can only be loaded to a truck. Bunkers etc are fixed and IIRC their spotting status remains between battles. so does the 88??? Or maybe it is because there are too many units in this op (spoiler: as hinted in the intro - you have the whole division at your disposal). It would be interesting to look up the unit numer of the spotter - Team no and when using "+". Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 Originally posted by Joachim: I thought the special problem of the 88 is that it is locked in place like a bunker and can only be loaded to a truck. Bunkers etc are fixed and IIRC their spotting status remains between battles. so does the 88???If I understand you correctly, you are saying that you have an 88 that unloads in one batle of an operation and cannot be moved in the next battle. You are asking if it has been legally spotted in the previous battle, does it begin spotted in the folowing battle, even if no enemy unit has LOS to it? I'd say yes. But the best way to check is to set it up as a hotseat game and see for yourself. If you can set up as the German player then switch to the other side and see it, there's your answer. If not, the AI is doing something a human player can't, and that sort of blows BFC's claim that the AI doesn't cheat. A serious matter. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: If I understand you correctly, you are saying that you have an 88 that unloads in one batle of an operation and cannot be moved in the next battle. You are asking if it has been legally spotted in the previous battle, does it begin spotted in the folowing battle, even if no enemy unit has LOS to it? I'd say yes. But the best way to check is to set it up as a hotseat game and see for yourself. If you can set up as the German player then switch to the other side and see it, there's your answer. If not, the AI is doing something a human player can't, and that sort of blows BFC's claim that the AI doesn't cheat. A serious matter. Michael I get an 88 in battle. It shoots, killing one KV2. I guess its spotted, cause it shoots 5 times. OTOH it hides a few turns till the battle ends. Distance to nearest enemy troops: 400m. Next battle setup: I have two SdKfz 7. The 88 is locked in place. I embark the gun during setup. I can only place it on one of the SdKfz 7, and the SdKfz 7 currently towing the 88 is fixed, too. I can move the other SdKfz, so I can place the 88 all over my setup zone, but it is always loaded. I can not disembark during setup. Turn 1: It receives incoming - probably anything the AI has. Surprise. I thought it was out of LOS as I thought I had carefully checked this. Restart. Put embarked 88 on a clearing with definitely no LOS to the enemy. Guess what. Sent file to Andreas. Your idea is basically what I had in mind. As soon as I find some time I'll create a short operation and test it... With fortifications, an 88 and several artificial ridges to block LOS. Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 Okay, from your description, you have moved the 88 between battles. In that case, it ought not to be spotted at the beginning of the next battle providing that you are correct in that no enemy unit has LOS to it. Can you be sure that there is no enemy unit lurking hidden somewhere where it might have LOS? If there really is not, then something fishy is going on. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Carr Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 Does the AI just decide outright that this vehicle or that gun will be destroyed if the means to do so are present on the battlefield? Please tell me it ain't so! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 I have seen this very issue back in the CM:BO days. In that case it was an American 75MM AT gun that would get shelled in turn one, no matter where I placed it. I mentioned it on he forum back then. This issue is certainly not new. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 Originally posted by Jack Carr: Does the AI just decide outright that this vehicle or that gun will be destroyed if the means to do so are present on the battlefield? Please tell me it ain't so! No. If this was constant, we'd all have noticed by now. It is probably some kind of glitch, like in those instances where units can gain LOS through several heavy buildings. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 Fredrock1957, I am sorry if you interpreted what I said as an attack , for such was NOT my intent. To the contrary, I was trying to help you. I did indeed miss the AI reference, being confused by the Chris F bit (don't know the scenario). Generally speaking, revealing the specifics, definitely OOB details, of what's in a scenario does require a spoiler warning, for many people don't want to know what they'll be encountering, whether fighting the AI or a human foe. The exception to this rule is the Scenario Forum, where the title says it all. The suggestion that you E-mail the files to support@battlefront.com was per BFC's own posted request in another thread. Again, I apologize at what was apparently a hugely crossed up effort at aiding you. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredrock1957 Posted April 2, 2004 Author Share Posted April 2, 2004 Hello John Kettler No offense taken... I am a little rough around the edges and have a tendency to attack (thats what makes me a lousy wargamer ).... Just ask people at The Proving Grounds.. I did send files to Marco at BFC and hopefully he will give me a response... maybe Sergei is right and it was a rare occurence... but somehow I doubt it... And thank you John for your input... the last thing I want to do is upset one of the finest online communities I know :cool: Regards -FR 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 Fredrock1957, Despite numerous assurances from BFC, let's just say you're not the only one with dark suspicions about the AI's probity. It seems to have a beyond a "sold the soul to the Devil" level of ability to find excellent sites for its own weapons and an almost terrifying ability to search out and kill with deadly precision and minimal ammo expenditure the player's most precious military assets. AI controlled weapons seem to have incredible accuracy, while yours will be hard pressed to hit near the barn, let alone its side. It loves to eat bazooka/Panzerschreck teams, and flamethrowers are its favorite snack. On the plus side, it's still relatively inept on the attack, especially with larger force sizes. I recommend human opponents. They're much more challenging, and some will even converse during the fight. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: Okay, from your description, you have moved the 88 between battles. In that case, it ought not to be spotted at the beginning of the next battle providing that you are correct in that no enemy unit has LOS to it. Can you be sure that there is no enemy unit lurking hidden somewhere where it might have LOS? If there really is not, then something fishy is going on. Michael I tested several locations. One is approx the board edge. It is a road with at least 2 tiles of woods on each side. You can not look thru 40m of woods (in this battle). LOS in woods is below 30m. I checked carefully if the road would allow LOS, but it is very long and has a bend blocking LOS. 3 other places where tested before, all had no LOS to enemy setup zone. All were shelled. Gruß Joachim [ April 02, 2004, 04:26 AM: Message edited by: Joachim ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 Sounds definitely suspicious. Ladies and gentlemen, I believe we have a gen-you-wine B.U.G. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappy Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 Well, I've never seen this, but it seems that a good number of you have. I would appreciate some words from the great powers on high on this one, if it please them of course. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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