Italian tank hunters

[Koenig]

I noticed the total absence of AT weapons in Italian squads.

I understand the subject is rather obscure, so I'd like to bring some light on it, in the hope the situation can be modified in a future CMAK patch.

Because of the lack of effective AT weapons, the Italian soldiers were forced to use unconventional means.

The most common was obviously the Molotov cocktail, used since the Spanish Civil War.

General Trocchia wrote in the 'Relazione sugli avvenimenti dal 9 dicembre 1940 al 5 gennaio 1941 dall'Halfaia a Bardia' ('Report on the events from 9th December 1940 to 5th January 1941 from Halfaia to Bardia'):

'Makeshift incendiary bombs (granades stuck to bottles filled with petrol) did not inspire trust, despite the throwers had witnessed the use by Moroccan troops in Spain. To the Regiment Commanders I had said: 'Better than nothing'.'

Very popular was the 'hand granade Passaglia', after the name of the Engineer officier that invented it.

It was made of a metal handle 40 cm long, attached to a canvas sack treated with castor oil and filled with explosive. The primer was inside the handle; alternatively an O.T.O. mod.35 granade was used.

The Passaglia granade was effectively used by the regiment 'Giovani Fascisti' in its heroic stand at Bir-el-Gobi, in December 1941.

Given the widespread use of makeshift AT bombs, in September 1941 S.M.R.E. (General Staff of Royal Army) made a study to start the industrial production of such weapons.

On 4th March 1942 the Inspectorate of Infantry issued the circular n. 1926 Difesa controcarri. Criteri d'impiego delle armi controcarri. (Anti-tank defence. Criteria of employment of anti-tank weapons), where the use of Molotov cocktails was codified.

The Folgore division was expecially successful with them.

Lt. Col. Bechi, commander of 187th Regiment Folgore, wrote in his report 'Esperienze ed ammaestramenti tratti dall'impiego della div. Folgore' (Experiences and learnings from the employment of the Folgore division):

'...incendiary bottles that, well handled, gave excellent results against tanks. (...) Gradually flamethrowers were discarded and with their personel Molotov cocktail thrower teams were formed; they proved to be very useful.'

In 1942 two models of anti-tank granade entered service.

The first was the Breda mod.42.

This was basically an ordinary Breda mod.40 granade which at the bottom had an aluminium sphere containing a supplementary charge of 575 g. of explosive.

The granade could penetrate plates up to 20mm and cause flaking to 40mm ones. The safe throwing distance was 5-8 meters.

40,000 Breda mod. 42 were ordered.

The second was the O.T.O. mod. 42 incendiaria.

This was an O.T.O. mod. 35 with a modified safety, without explosive, with a glass container screwed to the bottom and filled with 600 cl. of a mix of flamethrower liquid, petrol and sticky incendiary material.

The granade weighted about 1 kg and could be thrown at over 20 meters of distance; the safe distance was 10 meters.

Another weapon used by the Italian infantry was the war-prize British S.T. type, for which the Inspectorate of Infantry issued Circular n. 591 in 1942.

I suppose you know the technical features of this weapon so I won't list them here. By the way, I hope Commonwealth troops in CMAK are issued with them in the future!

In 1942 training courses for tank hunting were organized for anti-tank, recon and pioneer platoons.

On 8th February 1943 the Training Office of S.M.R.E. issued circular n. 2000 'Squadre pattugliatori-cacciatori di carri' (Tank patrol-hunter squads).

These were to be formed by 3-7 men per infantry company and be composed by 'selected and expecially trained men who, being free from other duties in occasion of close fighting with tanks, can pursue with superior effectiveness their specific duty'.

In the same circular it was specified that anti-tank training was nevertheless to be given to all infantry soldiers.

With Circular n. 77340/3 of 9th July 1943 (the day before Sicily landing!) tank-hunters squads were established for coastal battalions too.

Other weapons entered service a few months before the armistice, such as the Anti-tank Smoke Bottle, the Adhesive Anti-tank Magnetic Granade and the Anti-tank Sticky Bomb D.S. mod 43.

The Smoke Bottle was a glass container with 45 gr. of fossil flour (not sure the translation is right here lol) and 550 gr. of smoke liquid. 50,000 were ordered. It lasted 8 minutes and could cause the tank crew to abandon the vehicle; anyway it was good to cover tank hunters using magnetic mines.

These ones weighted 3.4 kg and could penetrate up to 150 mm of armour. The mine exploded 6-7 seconds after the safety was pulled. 10,000 were ordered.

The Breda D.S. mod. 43 sticky bomb used viscous substances to adhere to the armour, weighted 1.8 kg and could penetrate 60mm plates.

If the Germans had granade bundles, at least the Italians had Molotov Cocktails.

Actually something more, as I wrote above...

Regards

Koenig

[Hans]

The AT capability of Italians is badly under rated.

I believe this has been discussed before. I'm sure a Grog will be along soon and explain (or agree)

Whoa you are a newbie too - good starting post

Welcome to the life style known as CM

[Probert]

The dismissing of Italian anti-tank capability is not limited to CM. Pretty much every set of miniature WWII wargaming rules either ignores or gives short shrift to Eyetie AT.

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by Koenig:

The second was the O.T.O. mod. 42 incendiaria.

This was an O.T.O. mod. 35 with a modified safety, without explosive, with a glass container screwed to the bottom and filled with 600 cl. of a mix of flamethrower liquid, petrol and sticky incendiary material.

The granade weighted about 1 kg and could be thrown at over 20 meters of distance; the safe distance was 10 meters.

Perhaps 600ml?

600cl = 6l which if it had the same density as water would weigh 6kg by itself.

[yacinator]

really nice,long and informative post koening. u have a very good point molotov's coctails should be made availible to italians. and to the americans and germans and brits and every other army in the game. i didn't do any research and i don't know if the use of molotov's coctails by allied armies is documented but i'm sure that some soldier used it. also the italian seem to be using german hand grenades.

[SpitfireXI]

I noticed last night when making a scenario that the drop down menu for anti-tank weapons was displayed on the Italian Paratrooper HQ unit. However, once I clicked it all the numbers were grey and could not be clicked. A bug perhaps? I would think the Italins Paratroopers would definetly have something to throw at tanks.

[yacinator]

nope not a bug they just don't have any squad anti tank weapons expcept for demo charges for engineers

[JonS]

Koenig,

could you email me please. Address is in my profile.

Jon

[John Kettler]

Koenig,

Great post! Please at least put a link to it in the Official Patch and Bug Request Thread v 1.01. This is the kind of material which needs to go into the patch.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Ant]

Originally posted by yacinator:

really nice,long and informative post koening. u have a very good point molotov's coctails should be made availible to italians. and to the americans and germans and brits and every other army in the game. i didn't do any research and i don't know if the use of molotov's coctails by allied armies is documented but i'm sure that some soldier used it. also the italian seem to be using german hand grenades.

LOL. There's currently a thread in the CMBB forum complaining about molotovs being so useless that they actually want them removed. From what's been said there I think molotovs would actually diminish the italian AT capability

It's not just Italians that suffer from this in CMAK. There was a discussion a wee while back about British/commonwealth forces being handicapped by lack of squad AT weapons too.

[Koenig]

Thanks to all those who showed interest in this matter.

About the unfair lack of AT capability of Commonwealth forces in CMAK, I can only agree.

However I don't know much about it, so I'll leave the matter to Allied grogs. I can tell that Australian troops used the S.T. granade since the 1941 siege of Tobruk. I don't know if it was used earlier.

Generally speaking, I think it can be of interest the S.M.R.E. study of September 1941 I quoted above.

I'll translate some passages. They are written in a bad Italian, and I doubt that my translation will improve it.

Anyway I have tried to be as close as possible to the original.

'Considering that:

-anti-tank granades are widely and effectively used by the German, British and Russian army (the Germans use granade sticks, packets of seven granades where only the central one retains the handle; the Russians use the incendiary bomb 'Molotov Cocktail' and AW phosphorus granades, two kind of incendiary bombs; the British employ the same bombs as the Russians and an S.T. granade with a charge of about 400 gr. of nitroglycerine) by tank-hunter teams;

-expecially for a question of morale, it is very important that the infantry soldier has a weapon to counter effectively tanks;

we agree about the opportunity to resume the study for the adoption of an anti-tank granade.

Because we believe incendiary bombs are more effective against tanks than explosive ones, it is opportune that an incendiary bomb which can be thrown even from short distance, from an open position, is developed (offensive granade).

Explosive granades, instead, to be effective should contain a higher quantity of explosive than ordinary granades so, besides being less handy, can not be thown without risk from short distance.'

It is curious to note that the safe distance for the explosive Breda mod.42 is quoted as 5-8 meters, as for the incendiary O.T.O. mod. 42 it is 10 meters! By the way, you were obviously right about the latter, Gibson m.

Regards

Koenig

[Michael Dorosh]

How galling would it be if Italian troops were coded in the patch with captured CW AT weapons while the CW still laboured on without? DOH.

I would recommend a seperate PIAT team for the CW labelled "Anti-Tank Team", armed with a PIAT and possibly a Thompson SMG. The Seaforths of Canada did form a "tank hunting platoon" in Italy; their most famous member of course being Smokey Smith, VC. From his own account, though, IIRC, Smokey armed himself with the Thompson rather than it being official issue. He did, however, operate in a two man team that was seperate from the PIAT team found in an infantry platoon TO.

Whether these tank hunting teams were seperate from the company establishment, or an actual addition to the PIAT teams already on strength in each platoon HQ, is something I haven't been able to determine.

But certainly, as Jon S has pointed out, gammon bombs and a variety of CW grenades - at least one of which is alluded to above - were in use.

[Paco QNS]

In addition to Koenig:

The first was the Breda mod.42.

This was basically an ordinary Breda mod.40 granade which at the bottom had an aluminium sphere containing a supplementary charge of 575 g. of explosive.

The granade could penetrate plates up to 20mm and cause flaking to 40mm ones. The safe throwing distance was 5-8 meters.

40,000 Breda mod. 42 were ordered.

Here is a webpage with a photo of the Breda mod.35 and drawings of the mod.40 and mod.42 :

Granada de Mano BREDA y variante

-----------------------------------------

Koenig

Another weapon used by the Italian infantry was the war-prize British S.T. type, for which the Inspectorate of Infantry issued Circular n. 591 in 1942.

I suppose you know the technical features of this weapon so I won't list them here. By the way, I hope Commonwealth troops in CMAK are issued with them in the future!

Michael Dorosh

How galling would it be if Italian troops were coded in the patch with captured CW AT weapons while the CW still laboured on without? DOH.

I was on the brink to see the infamous "sticky grenade model nº 74" restricted to the "Home Guard" -later issued to the Resistence in Europe- (both Ian V. Hogg´s book "Grenades and mortars" and the following webpage seems to suggest this:

Nº 74 ST Grenade. (Sticky Grenade)

but I admit both Koenig´s info about captured material and here :

NZETC - Official History of New Zealand in the Second World War Chapter 12 see end of 109 page

seems to indicate that they were issued to Australians (?)(Tobruk) and New Zealanders.

Any other info about this?

After all, the Gammon nº 82 was issued -and it is in CMBO- as a better alternative than the ST from 1943 on, see:

The Grenade with Instant Fame by Cmdt O.E.F. Baker, DWD

No.82 Grenade (Gammon Bomb)