t34s vs. tiger, please help

[Rudy]

Hello, I am playing a scenario in which I have a dozen t34s and my opponent has 3 pz4s and a tiger. He is on the defencive and keeping his armor at the back of a village. He sticks out his tanks only to take a quick shot, then disappears back in the village. In this way I have lost a couple of vehicles. Every time that my infantry move, they are shot up in the open ground. Please can someone tell me how to approach the village with low casulties and then how my t34s can tackle the tiger? P.S. Keep in mind that I cant get behind him.

[flamingknives]

Try to drown the Tiger's crew in the tears of your bailed tank crews?

Hope that the god of bogging is displeased with the Tiger?

I'm assuming that these are 76mm armed T34s, in which case you're in trouble. Apart from 'hail-fire' - shooting the offending unit with as much as possible hoping for a damaging his - your goose is well and truely cooked.

If the enemy holds a village with armour and infantry, and you can't infiltrate into it, the correct procedure is to smash it to pieces with heavy artillery/tanks and/or go around it.

[tar]

Well a lot depends on the other terrain.

You will want to try to get the infantry into the village, which will put pressure on his armor to move out.

As for the Tiger, just work at staying out of its line of sight. If you get in close, you will be able to get at least onto its flank, which should be good enough to take it out (IIRC). Certainly if you can get your armor into the village, the tiger will have some trouble.

In the meanwhile, you can try to anticipate where the Pz4's will appear and try to set up ambushes from them. The key thing is to make sure you have the German armor outnumbered when it sticks its head out to shoot. You can probably force this a bit with your infantry assault.

If the tiger stays back out of the action, that's fine. If it comes in to engage, you have to use its three greatest weaknesses against it. First it is slow to move, so it can't be everywhere and it can't move quickly from one place to the next. Try to advance from both sides in such a way that it can't cover both approaches. Second, it has a slow turret, so it has trouble quickly switching from one target to another. You can exploit this to do your own version of the scoot out for a quick shot and then retreat. Also, for quick dashes from cover to cover, it may not be able to rotate its gun fast enough to track you. Third, there is only one of them. If you can kill the lighter tanks, then it is in real trouble, since you can overwhelm it with numbers from different directions. This also allows you to use the fast speed of the T-34 to your advantage and exploit the slow turret rotation. It has real difficulty following a close-in, quickly moving target.

As for the infantry over the open terrain, you should look for some of JasonC's excellent articles about moving infantry under fire. You need to move them in short bounds using Advance and letting them rest and recover morale in between. If you have off-map artillery you should fire smoke with it. That can also be used to neutralize the tiger tank, since it can't shoot what it can't see.

The one thing you really don't want to do is get into a long-range duel with the beast.

[David I]

Do everthing you can to kill off all the PzIV's before you even think about the Tiger. Then surround his ass and pepper it with side and rear shots.

Oh yeah, don't expect to win.

DavidI

[Andrew H.]

I think you're screwed - the tiger alone on the defensive could destroy all of your T-34s, and I don't think you can destroy it (with T-34/76s) from the front or the side.

But, since surrender may not be an option, here's what I would try.

1. Move all of your tanks together in a tight bunch - you want to be able to have them fire on one target. (Normally this isn't a great idea because it means you can't flank - but the tiger's 80mm side armor is still too much for a T-34 (barring, perhaps, a lucky shot). So give up on the flanking option.

2. Try to destroy the PzIVs. This should be easier if your tanks are in one group, especially if you can trade 10-1. Try to make him come to you (see below).

3. Use massed HE to bombard the village and any enemy troops you see. Don't quite fire blindly, but if you think it's likely his troops are in a particular village, you should bombard it. The idea is to make it painful for him to stay put and to force him to have to fight you so that your massed firepower can knock him out. (Of course, if he manages to bring out his Pz IVs and his tiger, you may be dead).

4. Keep your troops in cover until your tanks have reduced his. If he's pretty well hidden, maybe move a squad or half-squad around until he reveals his location, then bombard the revealed location with your massed tanks. Repeat.

5. Good luck - you'll need it.

[Vixen]

If you have some smoke you can blanket the village to get your t-34's in closer. The russian 76mm won't do much to the tiger but you can knock out the MK IVs and maybe get lucky and immob or damage the tiger's gun. Still....expect a lot of dead tanks.

[stikkypixie]

Pioneers with satchel packs are a great alternative to destroy that Tiger, only thing is:

a) you have to have pioneers

you have to get them close enough

[David I]

Actually, I had a Russian squad throw 1 Molotov and 2 grenades at the back end of a Tiger I and caused it to Abandon; much to my opponent's chagrin and my delight.

So I guess we are back to the luck factor.

DavidI

PS. If you do surround the Tiger and you do get an immobilization hit on him, call it a day. Do not try to go for the kill, just stay out of his LOS. I lost 3 T-34's to an immobilized Tiger I could have left alone.

di

[Bigduke6]

I have two kinds of comments; practical and moral. I'll start with the practical. You must conduct a proper combined arms attack, albeit you don't seem to have artillery.

Fortunately, Red Army infantry and armor alone are pretty good for that sort of thing, because they're tough, numerous, and they have plenty of close-range firepower. The main thing you need to remember for this drill is: "Be careful, don't charge."

1. The first and main step is taking out the non-Tigers. You want to create a situation where, on the armor side, there is a lone Tiger pitted against all your T-34s.

Take your time. Use your numerical and mobility superiority so that several of your tanks engage each of his, one at at time. Just avoid the Tiger, it can't point everywhere. Work your tanks close if you can - the German loses most of his accuracy advantage at close range.

It probably won't work out perfectly but that's what you need to shoot for: one tiger versus all your tanks.

2. At the same time you are engaged in a panzer hunt, spread your infantry out and move them towards the town from cover to cover in short advance moves. By short I mean 50-100 meters. If they get pinned down let them hide.

Maybe there is a covered route that allows you to get your foot boys close before some one shoots at them. Use it. If there isn't, then just spread them out to the maximum distance where you still usually have a good command control from the platoon leader to the squads. (The line is red not black).

Your goal with your infantry should be to present so many targets to the Germans, they can't pin down all the squads. Hopefully his tanks will be too busy worrying about your T-34s to shoot up your infantry.

Take your time; if they get pinned or tired, let that squad rest a turn or two. Rushed infantry is destroyed infantry, and in any case getting your infantry real close is useless, until you have taken out the non-Tiger panzers.

3. Ok, his panzers are dead, probably you have lost some more T-34s but some more are still alive, and some of your infantry is getting close to the town. It's time to hunt that Tiger.

It's not easy to make suggestions not having seen the terrain, but it sounds to me like the Tiger is hanging around the town. I hope so, because that's great for you. First, he can't see through the town's buildings, so you can try to manuever to keep buildings inbetween the Tiger and your T-34s.

If you can get into a situation where you're playing chase in the streets, that's really good for you (to a certain extent anyway) since the ranges are really low, and LOS really limited, meaning he is going to have troube swinging that big gun at T-34s poking at him.

The closer the better. Don't even think about trying to punch through at more than 200 meters, and if you can get to 50, go for it.

Under most circumstances use shoot and scoot orders where your tanks jump out of cover, fire a shoot, and then reverse back into cover before he can point that 88 your way. If it is pointing at place where you are thinking of pulling a shoot and scoot, DON'T. He'll smack you. Instead wait until the gun points somewhere else, ideally because one of your other tanks comes at him another way.

Also, remember that iff you trash the buildings that creates dust, and dust cuts line-of-sight for a turn or two. Try and use dust from smashed buildings to isolate the Tiger.

If the wind conditions are still you are in like flint, if you have a good breeze you are screwed.

Your infantry during all this should be continuing to work its way towards the Tiger. If there is German infantry in the way then kill it, maybe you have some extra T-34s that can help.

Eventually you may be able to get infantry next to the Tiger. Try and assault the vehicle from several directions at once, best of all when your T-34s are shooting at it as well.

Of course CMBB forces Russian infantry to throw Molotov Cocktails before resorting to grenades when fighting tanks, though grenades are alot more effective, so your infantry may do nothing against the tank. But maybe they will, and you are a Soviet, so who cares about infantry casualties? Besides, Tiger commanders often get paranoid when they can't see very far and there's enemy infantry crawling around nearby.

Good Luck!

And if it doesn't work out...

CMBB is not just stacked against the Soviets when it comes to forcing Red infantry to use a less efficient tank-killing weapon (Molotov Cocktails) before allowing them to use the more efficent one (grenades.) There are other things that a real life Soviet commander might be able to try in this situation, that you can't because it's CMBB.

CMBB leaves the streets open even if a building is trashed. In RL a good plan for a commander in your situaiton (Tiger in town, must neutralize it, can't wait) would have been just to level buildings and leaving the Tiger's crew to figure out how to make its way over the brick piles without losing a track. Too bad you don't have that option; no matter how much you trash the buildings the roads are always going to stay nice and open.

Second, bear in mind that CMBB 76,2mm Red Army tank guns are less effective than real life ones.

Specificially, Soviet T-34 tank crews figured that if they could get to within 100-200 meters of the flank of a Tiger I, that was close enough for a reliable kill.

CMBB doesn't replicate that. (There are giant threads on the forum as to why.) Even at point blank range your CMBB T-34 guns will bounce off of Tiger side armor far more often than getting even a partial penetration, which worse performance than in real life.

So if you lose, comfort yourself with the thought that you lost facing a somewhat ahistorical challenge. And if you win, congratulations killing a Tiger like you did is not easy.

[Mosquito]

Bigduke, appreciate it if you could post the URLs for some of the giant threads you mentioned re CMBB's non-realistic treatment of the T-34s main gun. Thks!

Mosquito

[Bigduke6]

Mosquito,

Sorry no can do, I read the threads a while ago, like years. Maybe some one else can help out.

What I can offer you is the pretty much definitive essay "World War Two Armour Penetration Statistics" by John Salt. I got it off the web but I don't have the URL, but if you want I'd be glad to send it to you by e-mail. It's a Word document a little over 50 pages long. Let me know.

The crux of the arguement on the forums, as I recall, was that CM uses historical gun/shell performance data for computing penetration, and the arguement was over possible differences between the way German gun ballistics scientists measured things and the way Soviet scients measured things.

The pro-Soviet side of the arguement claims the the German data computed "maximum possible penetration under lab conditions" while the Soviet data was based on "probable penetration based on field conditions."

The pro-German side of the arguement says no, the penetration data in the CMBB engine fairly represents the differences in Soviet and German gun performance during World War Two.

If you haven't guessed I am on the Soviet side, mostly because I have read lots of Russian accounts essentially describing 76,2mm AT gun performance somewhat better than it comes off in CMBB, specifically T-34s were effective against Tiger-I flank and Sturmgeschutz bow armour, if the range was 200 meters or so, or less.

My favourite common sense exhibit for the debate is the charge of 5th Guards Tank Army at Kursk, which was predicated on the idea that, if the T-34s got close enough, they had a fighting chance of overcoming Tiger I flank and rear armor. My point of view is that the Red Army commanders on hand would not have commit 500 or so tanks to an assault like that, if they didn't think they had a reasonable chance of hurting the Germans. Glantz's English-language Battle of Kursk lays it out pretty clearly.

Originally posted by Mosquito:

Bigduke, appreciate it if you could post the URLs for some of the giant threads you mentioned re CMBB's non-realistic treatment of the T-34s main gun. Thks!

Mosquito

[Lane]

T-34 Vs 3 King tigers. T-34 can kill the tigers

if you hide and get real close.

See my post up at Hero of the Soviet Union..Death

Match Battle by Panther Commander.

If you get your ground troops close to a immoblized tiger two or three grenades will cause

the crew to Abandon there tank. Just be sure his

Guns are not working

Lane

[David I]

Lane,

That's a T34/85 is it not? Different kettle o'fish.

DavidI

[Lane]

Yes David I It is a T34/85

It will kill the tiger at close range

Like Hiding between two buildings and let the

tiger pass by in front of you at close range.

but if you miss and he swings the gun. It's all

over. Have been playing Panzerman's above battle.

Yes you are right a Diffent Kettle o'fish.

Lane

[Hensworth]

If you don't have artillery, there's only one thing you can try.

I'm supposing he's got a PzIV guarding each side of the village, another one at the front and the Tiger at the back.

Mass all your tanks on one side and the infantry on the other side of the village.

Try to kill the PzIV guarding the side where your tanks are and then rush your remaining tanks in. He will have to react by moving his other tanks to deal with the charge. Then send in your infantry from the other side.

Move all your tanks in one big bunch and move fast. You're going to lose the lot but they're only there to give you a chance to get into the village.

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by Lane:

Yes David I It is a T34/85

It will kill the tiger at close range

It will kill the damn Tiger at just about any range! Don't leave such crucial details out of your initial query. :mad:

[Lane]

" Yes Sir" Mr Bone_Vulture"

You Vets known all the answers.

" I don't known Nothing"

When am I going to learn not to post

on this Forum

I will play the small battles and QB

and keep my opinions to my self

Have a Good one Mr Vulture

Lane

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by Lane:

" Yes Sir" Mr Bone_Vulture"

No hard feelings. But you could've received the perfect answers in the first three replies, had you mentioned the specific type of your T-34's in the initial post.

Attempting to take down a Tiger with a vanilla 76mm gun T-34 = suicidal without concentrated effort of superior numbers

Attempting to take down a Tiger with a funky fresh 85mm gun T-34 = challenging at most, since the big cat only has slightly better armor, and is a lot more clumsier.

[Lane]

To Bone_Vulture,

No hard feelings.

It was my fault, I should have read and study

the above postings. Before jumping in a staying

some stupid.

I just had been playing Panter Commanders death match.

with a T/34/85. Just had not killed one yet at long range. will keep trying.

Have a good one

Lane

[Larry Thorne]

Rudy

Just a quick question.

Is this scenario you are talking about the one you are playing in KOtH I tournament against Apilas?

If it is I really don´t wanna answer to this. If it isn´t I might have some ideas. Just want to keep the FOW on, in the tournament :confused:

-LT

[pannekoek]

if its wittmann o man your in trouble, the hole damn soviet army isnt going to destroy the tiger the only thing you can hope for that is shoot out his ammo on useless targets

then ask him to go to normandy