Newbie Question KV 2

[Liddell-Hart]

Set up a quick battle Dec 41 with each side having a bit of everything, not at all historically accurate but just wanted to have a quickish blast with a range of vehicles.

I gave the Russian side 4 KV 2's, and now there is one sat atop a rise in the battlefield with a line of sight across my whole front, and it is decimating my forces while my shells are bouncing off it, I've got a mix of everything from 38T's to PzKwIV all calibres from 37mm to 75mm and they haven't even scratched it yet, so far it's taken out 3 x 38T's and 4 x Pz IV's as I've tried to get round the back of it, how do I kill it, can I kill it, or do I just have to wait for it to run out of ammo?

I realise I'll never be a Guderian but getting my entire force wiped out by one tank is a little dispiriting.

[flamingknives]

With infantry, heavy guns or a suitable patch of muddy ground. Or a bit of luck. One of those shells bounching off it will do some damage eventually...

[ParaBellum]

Your best weapons against KV 2s in '41 are the 88mm Flak or a Stuka. If none are available infantry close assaults are quite effective. Force the KV to button up to reduce its spotting ability, use smoke to cover the advance and hope there is only one of them around...

All the german Panzers in '41 can't really kill a KV 2, but you may be able to disable the gun or immobilize it. Even 20mm guns can immobilize a KV 2 and sometimes force a green crew to abandon the tank.

[ November 25, 2004, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: ParaBellum ]

[Pzman]

Too bad he was talking about the KV-2 then. They are tough cookies and as noted for the KV-1, the 88mm flak is the only gun that can really do anything to it.

[ParaBellum]

Ooops, I was thinking about the KV 2 but typed I. Corrected that.

[Panzer76]

The captured 76mm ATG can take it out, that is, if it is available in Dec 41, cant remember. Other than that, smoke and satchels are your friend

[SpitfireXI]

I love hearing the Germans fretting about the couple of times they have to destroy a big scary enemy tank. The Allies hae had to deal with this problem throughout the entire war.

[Other Means]

Originally posted by SpitfireXI:

I love hearing the Germans fretting about the couple of times they have to destroy a big scary enemy tank. The Allies hae had to deal with this problem throughout the entire war.

Exactly.

All the above is good but the best advice is - be where it isn't. get to cover, try to draw it forward and set traps. It's well armoured all round so infantry attack is the only reliable way to take it out.

The other thing to do is what was done historically - hail fire. Have everyone shoot at it and a hit may knock out the gun or break a track. If both happens the crew generally bail (I know I would). Are you sure it's a KV2 not a 1? the 2 have the huge gun & the big square turret. If so I'm surprised it killed flankers as the ROF is very low & the shells very inaccurate. The 2 was basically an anti-infantry weapon.

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by SpitfireXI:

I love hearing the Germans fretting about the couple of times they have to destroy a big scary enemy tank. The Allies hae had to deal with this problem throughout the entire war.

I too think it is interesting to see Tank Terror show up. I think you find it on both sides of the lines in Russia quite often though.

In 1941 the T-34, KV-1 and 2's are all generally better than their German counterparts. From late 1942 through late 1943 the Tiger I and Panther are both tank terrors with the KV-1 still getting some respect. After late 1943 both sides have the ability to take out the other sides AFV's most of the time.

This of course is a very condensed version.

Good Hunting.

[Falcon988]

Tank terror is indeed interesting. Notice how, during Stalingrad, the Germans derided the Romanians for abandoning their positions and running from Russian tanks because they didn't have any AT weapons to fight them with. But a little over a month later the Germans themselves were out of AT and they were running from the tanks also.

Sitting in a foxhole watching a T-34 charge at you is not a pleasent experience.

[Bannon DC]

I have one of those Vanguard books about the KV series. Excellent battle descriptions and pictures. One KV has at least one hundred "scratches" on it from where German shells bounced off it. Finally an 88 knocked it out. Lucky for the Germans, that the KV was a mechanical piece of junk suffering from many breakdowns and difficulty in repairing it. Plus a lack of the correct ammo.

If you are fighting 4 KVs... you are in bad shape. If you can't get your infantry close, you are out of luck with your own armor.

[Bannon DC]

You've experienced Tank Terror first hand!

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by Bannon DC:

Lucky for the Germans, that the KV was a mechanical piece of junk suffering from many breakdowns and difficulty in repairing it. Plus a lack of the correct ammo.

You just described most early soviet tanks.

[Falcon988]

I hate the KV-2 with a passion unrivaled. I fought them in a scenario that took place on the first day of the war, PBEM against my friend. My Germans were doing very well up until he was reinforced by three KV-2's. They single handedly destroyed much of my armor and I had to withdraw the few remaining pieces that survived. I was finally able to gradually destroy all three thanks to close assault by a few brave German troopers, and I was able to regain the initiative and win the scenario. However I still suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder resulting from those KV-2's. Hate them hate them hate them. :mad:

[Freiheit]

Originally posted by Falcon988:

But a little over a month later the Germans themselves were out of AT and they were running from the tanks also.

Where did that happen?

[Falcon988]

Oh, heh. The 6th army when it was encircled in Stalingrad. I didn't mean that the -entire- army was out of AT.

[llama]

Originally posted by Falcon988:

I hate the KV-2 with a passion unrivaled. I fought them in a scenario that took place on the first day of the war, PBEM against my friend. My Germans were doing very well up until he was reinforced by three KV-2's. They single handedly destroyed much of my armor and I had to withdraw the few remaining pieces that survived. I was finally able to gradually destroy all three thanks to close assault by a few brave German troopers, and I was able to regain the initiative and win the scenario. However I still suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder resulting from those KV-2's. Hate them hate them hate them. :mad:

Please could you post the name of the scenario. I have a PBEM partner who always likes to play the German side and is particularly fond of the early war period. I think he might enjoy the challenge!

Cheers

[Freiheit]

Originally posted by Falcon988:

Oh, heh. The 6th army when it was encircled in Stalingrad. I didn't mean that the -entire- army was out of AT.

The 6. Armee?

What divisions, when and where? I never heard about that.

[Sergei]

Hello Schoerner!

[Falcon988]

[/qb]

[Falcon988]

Originally posted by Freiheit:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Falcon988:

Oh, heh. The 6th army when it was encircled in Stalingrad. I didn't mean that the -entire- army was out of AT.

The 6. Armee?

What divisions, when and where? I never heard about that. </font>

[Akula2]

Originally posted by Falcon988:

Next to Monte Gemmano (CMAK) it's my favorite operation.

I'm playing Gemmano right now pbem as Allied. It's rough gettin up that hill. The Gerbles are tearin up my Brit infantry pretty good. We're in game 3, the night time battle. I think I've had 4 or 5 Shermans shot up already. One to the ATG, one to the StuG and the rest to what I think is a single pesky 'shrek team. All but one or two were abandoned and I expect 3 back in the morning. Lost all 3 Brens but I expect at least 2 back in the morning. One got shocked in the same 'shrek hit that blew the snot outta one Sherman.

It's the infantry escort where I'm hurting. Gerbles are tearin em up at close quarters as they move ahead of the tanks. There's really nothin to do but take the lumps or stop advancing.

Great operation. It's definately one of the hardest I've played yet.

[Mad Russian]

Falcon 988...Freiheit is pulling your leg. He probably knows much more about Stalingrad than you do. Some of the people on this site could be history professors. Some actually may be.

Good Hunting.

[Falcon988]

Akula, Monte Gemmano was a complete meat grinder for me. I'd send up A Company, they'd be chewed up breaching the first line. B Company chopped to pieces breaching the second line. The remenants of A and B wiped out. C Company chopped to bits... etc etc. During the night battle my men were encamped in the Borgo and laid siege to the town, British artillery hit them, German artillery hit the Brits... at one point the Axis defenders outnumbered the Allied attackers. Let me tell you, I won by the skin of my teeth.

[Akula2]

Originally posted by Falcon988:

Akula, Monte Gemmano was a complete meat grinder for me. I'd send up A Company, they'd be chewed up breaching the first line. B Company chopped to pieces breaching the second line. The remenants of A and B wiped out. C Company chopped to bits... etc etc. During the night battle my men were encamped in the Borgo and laid siege to the town, British artillery hit them, German artillery hit the Brits... at one point the Axis defenders outnumbered the Allied attackers. Let me tell you, I won by the skin of my teeth.

I'm gonna nuke it from orbit. "It's the only way to be sure".

Siege!!?? How the hell did you seige!!?

Over this night battle I have enough infantry to provide security for the slew (official term) of tanks that needa git up that evil road. I have a few poor bastards left over to wander ahead into the woods on both sides of the road like Hansel and Gretel waiting for some evil to pop up and cut them down.

Poor bloody infantry are takin it on the chin in this one for the sake of those Shermans wich are only marginally effective in that terrain.

Tanks I got.

I really don't think I'll win this one. My opponent is too good.

I've only gotten as far as the rubble that was previously the first two buildings along the road near town. (2 storys) I can almost touch the flags, but they might as well be miles away.