Polish Bruce Lee Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 *sigh* i was playing this one map ( air assualt) where there is air support. alot of it. i was playing as the germans and as you can guess by the topixc name, there was a lil FF incedent. well a big one actually. i sent a falls. company with a mountain company across the runway to cap this one building, all of a sudden...BOOM!!! a freakin 1000 lb bomb blows up right inbetween the two companies, leaving NO ONE in any kind of fighting shape (eg. you cant fight without an arm, or a head)....thanks alot fly boys, id rather have a sqaud of KV-1's in front of me, then a stuka in back of my trying to hit them... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambronne Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 yeah...I hate that too.In fact I see it as a major obstacle in buying airpower.And if you think about it,in ww2 everyone was praying for air support and happy to have it,But in CM your own air force is your own nightmare.I hate to spend money for the enemy...so I'm very reluctant to buy planes of any kind. PS I never seen a CM battle in wich your own planes not to punch you hard especially if you have some vehicles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Originally posted by arbi: And if you think about it,in ww2 everyone was praying for air support and happy to have it, If I think about it, that strikes me as a very rose-tinted view of air support in WW2. The recent war in Iraq should have shown to any doubters that CAS is a dangerous business for the friendlies on the ground. Unless you want to suggest that things today have regressed from the wonderful state they were in during WW2. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambronne Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Originally posted by Andreas: Unless you want to suggest that things today have regressed from the wonderful state they were in during WW2. ]LOL...nice touch...I didn't say I didn't accept some friendly looses but it seems to me that if that happens every single battle and not only scattered casualities (once I lost 150 men-that's almost half of my menpower- and several Panzers due to my Stukas)I will ask myself whay sould I buy planes? What would be MY advantage for the points I spent? Cause I certainly won't give my money for a plane who kills 100 Germans and 100 Russians. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 I never buy aircrafts, imho its a big gamble and you need luck in stead of skills like with other units. ------------------------------------------------ Puzzled President Cheney gets a call from his "boss", W. "I've got a problem," says W. "What's the matter?" asks Cheney. "Well, you told me to keep busy in the Oval Office, so, I got a jigsaw puzzle, but it's too hard. None of the pieces fit together and I can't find any edges." "What's it a picture of?" asks Cheney. "A big rooster," replies W. "All right," sighs Cheney, "I'll come over and have a look." So he leaves his office and heads over to the Oval Office. W points at the jigsaw on his desk. Cheney looks at the desk and then turns to W and says, "For crying out loud, Georgie - put the corn flakes back in the box." Monty 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAUS_TD Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 When i buy airpower they have to be at least crack then they will attack the enemy. thank god i have never had this problem that my forces was shot up by my own plane. What i see is that they attack abanded vehicles and knocked out ones. But i agree this arent red barons (**** wrong war) but they normaly do plenty of damage 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Originally posted by arbi: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas: Unless you want to suggest that things today have regressed from the wonderful state they were in during WW2. ]LOL...nice touch...I didn't say I didn't accept some friendly looses but it seems to me that if that happens every single battle and not only scattered casualities (once I lost 150 men-that's almost half of my menpower- and several Panzers due to my Stukas)I will ask myself whay sould I buy planes? What would be MY advantage for the points I spent? Cause I certainly won't give my money for a plane who kills 100 Germans and 100 Russians. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tools4fools Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 I haven't bought yet any air support, but in one of my PBEM's my opponent got a fighter bomber and I didn't have any AA guns. Knocked out 1 of my 3 T-34's and two of my five T-70's. Fairly effective I would say. I was running a few test afterwards and my observations were that they do hit friendles sometimes - but most of the time they do hit the opponent. And they hit hard. It seems that like one in three bombing passes is a hit - which seems to me that those guys are all little Red Barons. Strafing runs on light vehicles seem to be even more accurate. I sure won't leave home anymore without AA capabilities - or own fighters overhead. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Originally posted by arbi: Cause I certainly won't give my money for a plane who kills 100 Germans and 100 Russians. Replace 'Russians' with 'Americans', and you have Lesley McNair's last words. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Using CAS on attack requires some tactical adjustments. The safest thing is not to advance until the planes show up, but since this might mean a huge delay, it is not practical. It is safer to let the airforce do what they do not in the immediate vicinity of your ground forces, though. I think buying a/c is only useful for hampering an enemy armoured attack. And even that doesn't work when it is overcast. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Originally posted by Andreas: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by arbi: Cause I certainly won't give my money for a plane who kills 100 Germans and 100 Russians. Replace 'Russians' with 'Americans', and you have Lesley McNair's last words. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Yeah, but McNair was carpet bombed by heavies. The same thing happened to Major General Rod Keller of 3rd Cdn Inf Div in Normandy. Again, the worst friendly fire incidents involved heavy bombers, not the tactical fighters we see in CM.The worst, yes. The most numerous, certainly not. Memoirs by British soldiers are quite frank about the times they were attacked by their own planes in France, and elsewhere. Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: I think the problem with CM's depiction is not the number of FF incidents but the manner in which CAS is called down. Ground troops really should be required to use air/ground recognition signals, as was the case in real life. I fully agree - a TRP for air attack (could be coded in as a nice red smoke signal) should do it, and would make the handling more flexible. Players can either place it themselves during the battle, or it could be pre-placed by a scenario designer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Originally posted by Andreas: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Yeah, but McNair was carpet bombed by heavies. The same thing happened to Major General Rod Keller of 3rd Cdn Inf Div in Normandy. Again, the worst friendly fire incidents involved heavy bombers, not the tactical fighters we see in CM.The worst, yes. The most numerous, certainly not. Memoirs by British soldiers are quite frank about the times they were attacked by their own planes in France, and elsewhere. Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: I think the problem with CM's depiction is not the number of FF incidents but the manner in which CAS is called down. Ground troops really should be required to use air/ground recognition signals, as was the case in real life. I fully agree - a TRP for air attack (could be coded in as a nice red smoke signal) should do it, and would make the handling more flexible. Players can either place it themselves during the battle, or it could be pre-placed by a scenario designer. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Well, when I say TRP I just mean the mechanism of doing it. How it is represented is another matter, and red smoke for the Germans would be the right way to go, IIRC. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Being able to have some control over when the planes arrive, like preplanned barrages, would also be helpful and not too unrealistic as long as there remains some possibility that they will arrive at the wrong time. Usually what I would like them to do is to give the enemy positions a good working over before my troops begin approaching the positions from which they are going to make their final assault, then the artillery should take over for a while. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Another thing that I'd love to see is the option of committing air resources off-map. Then, if they are successful, the enemy's artillery is suppreessed or scheduled reinforcements (if any) are delayed/do not arrive. Michael [ July 17, 2003, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Phosphorus Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 There definitely needs to be a air TRP kind of like aerial are fire at least for scenario purposes. I mean, if you are assaulting a BIG hill, and the pilots are ordered to bomb a BIG hill then they should attack that hill and not waste their time on crap near the hill. Now if you take the hill before the aircraft arrive they would still bomb that hill. Also aircraft formation would be really nice. Why does each airplane show up whenever it feels like it. Shouldn't they do it en masse? The above would allow some really cool operations. I.E. during battle 5 reinforcement will include five IL-2s, and they all bomb an enemy strong point at the same time. If you push too hard, and try to get things done before battle five, the strongpoint would generate murderous Long range AT fire. The player would be forced to pace the operation in such a way as to make most use of the preplanned bombing run. Or maybe when buying the air unit you could select it's mode of attack, preplanned vs free roam. Also, where are napalm and cluster bombs??? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loaf Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Regarding the reliability of WWII air support: My grandfather was involved in a well-known friendly-fire incident during the Normandy campaign. He served in the Canadian Army with the Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa, which was a heavy machine-gun and mortar regiment. My grandfather's platoon was attached to the Queen's Own Rifles (Toronto) as fire support. Anyway, during Operation Tractable RAF bombers saw yellow smoke that the ground troops had been told to use to identify themselves to friendly aircraft - unfortunately the bomber crews mistook the smoke for target markers dropped by their Pathfinder units and let fly with over 3000 tons of bombs... About 165 Canadian and Free Polish troops were killed. Admittedly this incident involved strategic bombers that were not used to the tactical air support role... A lot worse to have a whole formation of bombers mess up than a lone aircraft! Anyway, it has got to be pretty hard to tell one tank from the other from the air I would imagine... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nippy Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Originally posted by White Phosphorus: Also, where are napalm and cluster bombs??? No napalm, but a crude for of cluster bombs are in game. Look at the loadouts on mid to late war German and Russian dedicated CAS planes like the Il-2. There should be a load out option called something like (5X50 bombs). What it means is 50 5kg bombs dropped at once, it does give a nice area effect. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl60 Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 If I have air support then I always hang back and wait for the planes to finish their attack runs before advancing. That way they rarely get confused over who's who on the battlefield. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Originally posted by Loaf: Regarding the reliability of WWII air support: My grandfather was involved in a well-known friendly-fire incident during the Normandy campaign. He served in the Canadian Army with the Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa, which was a heavy machine-gun and mortar regiment. My grandfather's platoon was attached to the Queen's Own Rifles (Toronto) as fire support. Anyway, during Operation Tractable RAF bombers saw yellow smoke that the ground troops had been told to use to identify themselves to friendly aircraft - unfortunately the bomber crews mistook the smoke for target markers dropped by their Pathfinder units and let fly with over 3000 tons of bombs... About 165 Canadian and Free Polish troops were killed. Admittedly this incident involved strategic bombers that were not used to the tactical air support role... A lot worse to have a whole formation of bombers mess up than a lone aircraft! Anyway, it has got to be pretty hard to tell one tank from the other from the air I would imagine... Yep; this was the same incident I mentioned above. Andreas is right, though, this type of short bombing happened but rarely. Mostly because Bomber Harris et al didn't want their bombers 'wasted' on tactical missions when they could be raining it down on German cities day and night. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urefinger Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 I dont know if anyones noticed but on BIG wide open maps planes practicly NEVER get the side they attack wrong (like a dist of 1km between forces) becuse they can easily see the two "lines" presumably but in encounters within a 100m it shoots right up becuase (if you've ever tried playing something likr IL2 sturomvik) its practicly IMPOSSIBLE to tell friednly's from enemy's..... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polish Bruce Lee Posted July 18, 2003 Author Share Posted July 18, 2003 yea, i have IL-2 Surmovik and its REALLY had to tell any differance. thats why i think CAS should either be preplanned, and like it is now, like a free roaming thing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Originally posted by Darryl60: If I have air support then I always hang back and wait for the planes to finish their attack runs before advancing.Sensible, but the problem with that is what do you do when the planes don't show up until turn 30 of a 35 turn game? Not that that never happened in real life... Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl60 Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 If they don't show by the 5th turn I start moving. If they still haven't shown up by the time I contact the enemy,I try to keep some distance between my units and the enemy units. I've only had one bad friendly fire incident so far. Stukas knocked out 3 of my pzkwIVHs once. It was my fault,I moved them too close to enemy units and I think they got caught in the bomb spread...since the enemy units were also taken out...not to mention a third of the buildings in the village I was in. I like air support...it can be devastating...sometimes for both sides. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.