Industrializer Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 During some QB I've diecovered that tanks are really poor at hitting a target other than enemy vehicles. In one game I ordered a veteran PzIV to AreaFire at a 2store factory (110m away) The first 5 shots fell short and as I haven't continued I can't tell whether they'll hit that damn building with the sixth shot. That is totally unrealistic, a 2 store factory is at least 5m high, at targets below 200m the gravity has absolutely no influence on the projectiles course so all the tank crew has to do is point the damn gun straigt at the building and shoot. Even a conscript crew should be able to do this and hit with the first shot ! Another point is hitting smaller targets, guns or Infantry on the ground. At first here is a little pic from my last QB against the AI were my tanks (all veteran) trid to hit small targets. As you can see the PzIV took 18 shots, not even getting close to the target (the MG inside the trench) but plotting a nice line, the Tiger also shot 11 times (at the Inf. inside the destroyed building) into the dust and the StuG would have done the same had I taken this picture a little bit later. Well, I dont know how good the WW2 tankers were at hitting small target but in this QB the targets were less than 300m away and every tank should have zeroed in at least with shot 3 or 4! Veterans should be even better because their experience should help them to guess the distance better. Here is a little shot from the Tigerfibel (official handbook for the Tiger tank commander) telling how to zero in on a target with 3 shots if the area behind the target can be observed or 3-4 shots if the area behind the target can't be spotted (and both methods are demonstarted for targets 2000+ meters away!). Maybe this can be corrected with a new patch ?? Pretty please ?? [ February 23, 2003, 01:59 AM: Message edited by: Industrializer ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 I think I may know the answer to your problem... Note how the craters from the shells form a line? I've had this happen to me several times and it deals with the angle the tank is firing at the target from. I guess techinically the commander or tank can see the target, but the gun cannot shoot it. I always fix by moving tank to a different angle or going in closer. I dont think it's exactly bug, but yes it is annoying sometimes... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Industrializer Posted February 23, 2003 Author Share Posted February 23, 2003 I could understand the misery if the tanks were below the target, having no straigt line or could just barely hit the target without overshooting it but in this scenario the tanks and the target were almost at the same height, no tank was hull down. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 Oh.. not hull down.. hmm I have no idea man, did you try x'ing out the target order, telling the tank to move like 10-20 m over up or whatever? Anyways just tryin to help.. good luck 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Industrializer Posted February 23, 2003 Author Share Posted February 23, 2003 nop, I didn't move them as I thought that their best chances of hitting the target would be if they can use their previous shots to calculate the exact distance and not getting confused with advancing and having to rethink everything But especially the 'unable to hit a 5m high brick wall from 100m' incidence made me belive (until proven wrong) that the program code needs some correction. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walpurgis nacht Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 Originally posted by Sublime: I think I may know the answer to your problem... Note how the craters from the shells form a line? I've had this happen to me several times and it deals with the angle the tank is firing at the target from. I guess techinically the commander or tank can see the target, but the gun cannot shoot it. I always fix by moving tank to a different angle or going in closer. I dont think it's exactly bug, but yes it is annoying sometimes... It IS a bug, verified by Steve himself . . . and an annoying one at that. The latest patch did not help this at all. If you have LOS, you should be able to theoretically hit your target. If not, you should get a "gun blocked" warning like "MG blocked". No *intelligent* tank commander is going to allow 17 rounds of HE to dig a ditch in front of it when it's target is 100's of meters away. This one problem is so bad, that I think it seriously tips the balance in favor of the defender. i.e., it is really annoying when your attacking tank encounters an AT gun, both have LOS, but your tank loses because he cannot hit the AT gun, while the AT can hit you. CMBB is a great game, the best in fact, but this is its greatest flaw. [ February 23, 2003, 03:44 AM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Night ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Industrializer Posted February 23, 2003 Author Share Posted February 23, 2003 So, this is a bug, but is there a workaround ? Does advancind a few meters help ? Or cancelling the target and reassigning it ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 I always cancel the target and move the tank, usually if Im fighting AT weapons or other tanks I reverse it out of los and engage again somehow - otherwise against infantry or less threatening stuff I always run em over some to the left or right or whatever applicable direction and bang away works a lot of the time.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjhays Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 What you are experiencing is called "turret down" (much like hull down). This is basically where your main gun can not fire and of course your turret is hidden from view as well. On some tanks the sights are on top of the turrets instead of inline with the tube also the TC will be able to see but the gunner may not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Industrializer Posted February 23, 2003 Author Share Posted February 23, 2003 If they were "turret down" they would have been unable to fire at the target but they did, with each shot landing 1-2 meters closer to the target. And as I said before, my tanks and the targets were basically at the same level, no obstacles or hills blocking the view. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walpurgis nacht Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 If anyone that post here attempts to justify this they are wrong. The game designers themselves consider this a "bug". Considering that we have to live with it however, the suggestions above are good. You just have to manuever your tank a few meters forward, often out of hull down, in order to reach your target. This is very dangerous and wholly unreasonable, but it is the only way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kump Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 Industrializer You and the target may have LOS and be at the same height, but the problem is a rise in the ground between you and the target. The target is "gun down" and the rounds keep hitting the rise. The best tactic is to cancel and manuever to avoid the ground rise, either advance or go around. 1.02 was supposed to fix this, I thought. But I see the same thing occur. Maybe it will be addressed in one more patch. If you don't notice this unfortunate tank behavior, you can throw all your ammo away. I wish we could get a message when targetting and the AI would just cancel the target if it can't hit it, period. For now, you'll just have to keep your eye open for this type of nutty behavior. CMBB is about as perfect a product I've ever owned. I hope this one flaw is buffed out so it shines even more. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Havermeyer- Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 Interesting. This just happened today in a QB. I had a 75mm gun in woods, dug in as a defender. I killed my opponent's AFV with said gun. He complained in the return file about his AFV not having LOS to the gun, but my gun obviously having LOS to his AFV. I called him French for whining so much... ...but me may have had a point? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 It IS a bug, verified by Steve himself . . . and an annoying one at that. The latest patch did not help this at all.Er... not correct. The only thing I was aware of was the gun sometimes shooting into the ground directly in front of the vehicle. This was fixed for 1.02, at least with test examples where in 1.01 shots always hit and in 1.02 shots never hit. What is being discussed in this thread is almost certainly something different. Note that the bug I mentioned almost always struck the same exact spot. In the picture above it looks like the gun is "walking" the rounds to the target. That is something I don't think we have ever seen before. If there is a save of this, please send it to Matt at matt@battlefront.com Thanks, Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom TCMHQ Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Yes , strange things happen: Yesterday I played a QB against the AI ( total randomized ) and got a German Infantry C. against a mechanized Russian C....supported by six T-34. My poor Krauts ( no AT guns available ..) were overrun by a superior enemy and seeked shelter in a nearby wood. The Russian infantry advanced , while the T-34 took position below a ridge line were they thought to have a LOS to my men. Now a strange event occured. The tanks opened fire at my positions , but all shoots hit the ridgeline in front of my defensive positions and stopped the Russian infantry from advancing further ( in fact many Russian panicked because of " Friendly Fire " ). Now I ask myself: Traitors or a bug ? The Russian tanks never corrected their mistake and wasted all their ammo to the ridge... Cheers Tom 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Thanks for the response Steve. I have noticed this behavior quite a lot since the release of the 1.02 patch. If I was thinking I would have saved a few game files but I have several incidences of tanks firing repeatedly into the ground 50 to 100 meters short of the target. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Industrializer Posted February 24, 2003 Author Share Posted February 24, 2003 I have no save File from the said battle as it was vs. the AI but I have some saved PBEM playbacks were the exact same happened. This time at a 100% flat (city) map. One of my marder III just shot 6 of his precious HE into the _exact_ same spot (but not were they were supposed to land), another PzIV was plotting a line towards his target (Patch 1.02) I'll send the save games ASAP :cool: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Industrializer Posted February 24, 2003 Author Share Posted February 24, 2003 OK, send, have fun during debugging 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 i noticed something not quite so damning in a vs AI QB the other day. after destroying all the AFV'S and completely routing the AI's infantry, the AI had a road to basra type situation with a long straggling line of infantry trying to make it to the map edge with 6 KV's/T34's surrounding them, pumping round after round into them. one heavy MG was being machine gunned by a KV on a rise to the rear of it & the KV also shot about 12 rounds of HE at it. the HE formed a neat line of craters following the MG to the back of the map. the gunner didn't lead the MG at all. this does not seem realistic to me. surely the gunner would lead even a slow moving unit a little bit? BTS fix it or do sumfink. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberFunBunny Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 I have had this problem occur with 1.02. In one instance I wiped out a couple squads of my own men trying to hit an HMG further away. My tanks just kept hitting the ground (where my men happened to be) not seeming to notice after a dozen or so shots each that they were missing the target. Another time my tanks repeatedly missed a target by hitting just in front of it. In all cases my tanks had LOS to the intended target. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt. Kije Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 I also have experienced this problem. I would not call it rare, or even infrequent. It is indeed very frustrating and I see it as a serious problem, reducing both the sense of verisimillitude and playability. -- Lt. Kije My moving shadow scars the heart of the world. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 I thought that maybe it was something with the terrain but I have run acouple more turns and noticed that the bow machinegun is firing away and on target while the maingun seems to be continuously 50 to 100 meters short. One or two shots I can understand but I am talking about 7 to 10 rounds here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberFunBunny Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 the bow machinegun is firing away and on target while the maingun seems to be continuously 50 to 100 meters short This is my experience too. In fact, when suppressing infantry I often don't use my main gun as I know this may result in wasted ammo. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer76 Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 In a recent PBEM my opponent had 6 T34's trying to hit my Pak (hi Joe! ) but none hit and my Pak just took them down one by one. The reason for this, it seems to m, is that the Pak was located right behind a rise in the terrain. Thus all shots either hit in front of it, or wnt over its head. This terrain feature made the Pak impossible to hit for the T34s. When it comes to AFV hitting soft targets, have a look at the recent rexfod post. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KursruK Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />It IS a bug, verified by Steve himself . . . and an annoying one at that. The latest patch did not help this at all.Er... not correct. What is being discussed in this thread is almost certainly something different. Note that the bug I mentioned almost always struck the same exact spot. In the picture above it looks like the gun is "walking" the rounds to the target. That is something I don't think we have ever seen before. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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