6km x 4km map of Prokhorovka region

[Keke]

With a contemporary 1:50,000 topo-map and Mapping Mission I produced a 6km x 4km map of the region located west of Prokhorovka. It's more like topographical study of the area, since only miniscule amount of terrain is included (adding detailed terrain would have taken like forever).

Here are 4 screenshots:

First one is a view from NW corner of the map. It shows how dominating feature dried up river beds are for the region.

Second is from SE showing the only forest of the area, between Lutovo and Yamki.

Third is a view from Oktiabrski State Farm towards Prokhorovka. Hill 252.2 is on the right. The road and railroad to Prokhorovka would go along the ridge.

The final one is a view from Prokhorovka town towards Hill 252.2.

[ March 21, 2004, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Keke ]

[Sergei]

:eek: :cool: Very good. And I suppose the Mapping Mission file is available from you upon request?

[Sergei]

P.S. Now get back to making Finnish scenarios!!! :mad:

[Keke]

Originally posted by Sergei:

And I suppose the Mapping Mission file is available from you upon request?

Sure!

Originally posted by Sergei:

P.S. Now get back to making Finnish scenarios!!! :mad:

Lol...somehow I knew I would get that kind of response from you.

[Trommelfeuer]

When I try to view the screenies, I get this message:

"You are attempting to reach a page that does not exist.

» Please use your browser's back button to return."

Sounds good though...

Regards, Sven

[Keke]

Originally posted by Trommelfeuer:

When I try to view the screenies, I get this message:

"You are attempting to reach a page that does not exist.

» Please use your browser's back button to return."

Sounds good though...

Regards, Sven

Argh! :mad:

Copy the link to your browser. That should work.

[Sgt AA]

/svendufva/ ???

Has it something to do with the last man holding the bridge? "The brave man with a weak head but a strong heart" as Runeberg wrote about!? (Fänrik Ståls sägner, right?)

Just curious

Regards/

[Brent Pollock]

Not for me it didn't...

Originally posted by Keke:

Argh! :mad:

Copy the link to your browser. That should work.

[Keke]

***

[ March 21, 2004, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Keke ]

[Keke]

Originally posted by Sgt AA:

/svendufva/ ???

Has it something to do with the last man holding the bridge? "The brave man with a weak head but a strong heart" as Runeberg wrote about!? (Fänrik Ståls sägner, right?)

Just curious

Regards/

Are there any other famous Sven Dufvas?

[Aragorn2002]

Keke, where can we download this great looking map?

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Originally posted by aragorn2002:

Keke, where can we download this great looking map?

I'll second that. Please make it available to the unwashed masses.... :cool:

[_Axe_]

Can I beat you on this one too Keke?

[Keke]

Gents,

I might post the map to the Scenario Depot, but keep in mind that it is an operation map due to its size, and doesn't have much terrain in it, so it isn't very useful.

Slather2121, keep your nose out of this thread, and send me mah turn! :mad:

[Keke]

This one is for Sergei (I hope the image shows up now):

Siiranmäki-map has grown in size! :eek: That is a NW view towards the hill.

I'm planning to do a Static operation with it. :cool:

[Keke]

Edit: Initial post was edited to show the Prokhorovka images.

[kipanderson]

Hi,

I am fortunate in having a large collection of topographical maps covering the westerner Soviet Union. Mainly the Ukraine and around Kursk. As a result I have built a number of large CMBB maps based on the real topography. In my view it is hugely important to fight over real terrain. It makes a massive difference.

When I first built such a CM map, and took the time to put in the terrain detail based on the three or four thousand photos I have accumulated covering the war in the east, the results looked stunningly realistic. (This is not as many photos as it sounds; some books have 400-600 alone.)

This is the ultimate complement to those at BFC who did the terrain graphics. The CM maps looked just like 3d, colour versions of all those black and white photos I have.

The tactical implications are also great.

Most Soviet terrain does not have the “micro-landscape” of Western Europe. What I mean is that Soviet terrain tends to come in larger “blocks” than in Western Europe. Let me explain.

Take a CMBO map of 3km x 3km. Assume 20% is woods, 10% brush, 5% village or urban. In Western Europe the net result will often, but not always, be a large number of smaller landscapes within the overall map in which Line of Site is restricted to a few hundred meters. This is because the woods, brush and buildings, plus features such as hedges, will tend to be scattered throughout the 3km x 3km area in relatively small pockets, and in lines. In turn this breaks the landscape into many different pockets with limited Line of Site.

Now imagine a CMBB map of similar size, with similar percentages of vegetation, urban and such. But no hedges. What you would tend to find in the Soviet Union is that the 20% that is wooded, to give one example, will be split up into just two or three larger blocks. The terrain being undulating with the majority of vegetation and buildings in the valleys. There will often be a block of woods, say 1km x1km, then 1500-3000 meters of open, gently undulating terrain with just a small village with some fencing and brush on the lower ground.

The net result of all of the above is that Lines of Site tend to be far greater in the Soviet Union. This in turn means that attacking AFVs are far more vulnerable to flanking shots then is often the case in the west.

The tactical implications of these long open flanks is that even the modest Soviet 76.2mm Model42/Zis3 gun can do massive damage to Uber Panzers such as the Panther, let alone lesser models such as MarkIVs and StugIIIs. The standard Soviet tactic was to allow Panzers to advance until they were parallel with Soviet gun positions, and then blast them in the sides. Remember the 76.2mmZis gun can penetrate a Panther, through the side, at 1,000m, even at a 45 degree strike angle.

The point of all this ranting is, take the trouble to build a topographically accurate maps of the western Soviet Union. Make them around 3km in width. Throw a Soviet defensive position across the map. Nothing too extreme, say a slightly reduced company of infantry with 3-4 AT guns per km. Then have a German combined arms team with at its heart fifteen odd Panthers plus a company of motorised Panzergrenadiers attack. Make the Germans attack roughly the centre of the line. Remember, in the real world there is no “map-edge” to protect your flank. (Playing human v human, use a special rule that the Germans may not enter the six hundred metres on the extreme of each flank.)

What you will find is that the German force attacking the Soviet company in the central km of the map will breakthrough. However… and this is the important part, the German losses are likely to way over any realistically acceptable level. You could end up with losses of six or more Panthers to flanking shots over the open terrain. 40% or more losses.

This is the truly outstanding thing about CM. Take the trouble to build realistic maps, there is no substitute for using a real topographical map as a guide; throw in realistic forces in realistic deployments. The net result will be as it most often was in the real world.

CM is more than a game; it is a form of military history.

All the best,

Kip.

PS. Yes… Borg Spotting is a problem, but given that CM was first designed to run on a P200 there was always going to be some imperfection. With CMX2 it will be a thing of the past.

PPS. For free maps of the Ukraine go to

http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/EART/x-ussr/ukraine.html

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Originally posted by kipanderson:

Hi,

I am fortunate in having a large collection of topographical maps covering the westerner Soviet Union. Mainly the Ukraine and around Kursk. As a result I have built a number of large CMBB maps based on the real topography. In my view it is hugely important to fight over real terrain. It makes a massive difference.

Absolutely agreed. Please post your maps at The Depot or the CMMODS Map section. Pretty please? Many of us love those type maps, but have to use the little rl time we have available for this sort of thing to actually play!

[Keke]

Originally posted by kipanderson:

What you will find is that the German force attacking the Soviet company in the central km of the map will breakthrough. However… and this is the important part, the German losses are likely to way over any realistically acceptable level. You could end up with losses of six or more Panthers to flanking shots over the open terrain. 40% or more losses.

Kip,

If your example somehow presented a typical situation during the Kursk campaign, then how come German tank losses were so low? According to Zetterling irrevocable tank losses for the Germans, stugs included, were 280 5-20 July. Maybe they didn't just rush forward without securing their flanks after all?...

[GJK]

Keke,

I'd love to host these maps at The Proving Grounds as well. I'm sure some scenario authors would love to work with these!

[imported_no_one]

Originally posted by Keke:

I'm planning to do a Static operation with it. :cool:

Looks awesome Keke!

If the total points for this operation arent too high(IOW,if the PBEM files wont be gigantic),I'd be more than willing to help playtest it.

This is,of course,assuming that it will be playable PBEM,which I hope it will

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Keke:

This one is for Sergei

I'm planning to do a Static operation with it. :cool:

Ah yes, looks very pleasing to my eye! How large do you think the operation will become, in battalions and battles?

I wonder if Sardaukar still is working on a new Kuuterselkä scenario. VT line rocks.

[kipanderson]

Keke, hi,

“If your example somehow presented a typical situation during the Kursk campaign, then how come German tank losses were so low? According to Zetterling irrevocable tank losses for the Germans, stugs included, were 280 5-20 July. Maybe they didn't just rush forward without securing their flanks after all?...”

Just a few quick points in no particular order.

1) For a response to the Zetterling view of Kursk read the recent book by Steven Newton, Kursk the German View. It ends with four essays; one of which deals head on with Zetterling. In short, the Germans were bled white. Newton goes back to the same German records Zetterling used, but digs far deeper. But let’s not turn this into an argument over Kursk.

2) In my first post I was just illustrating a point, given the way most play CM. If you wish to simulate a real world battle set everything up as above… but make it a three battle, Static Operation. Each battle being 60 turns long. Attack with your Panzers in a “flattened” bell formation, not a “V” formation. Have the fifteen Panthers attack over 1,500m of front, in three platoons. The rear most Panthers, on the extreme two flanks, being about 500m-700m behind the most forward of the central platoon’s tanks. Move forward one or two tanks in each platoon at a time, in Hunt mode, just 100m or less at a time. The other tanks being in over-watch. Move infantry forward with the tanks, but well spread and just in front of the tanks. Do everything very slowly and carefully. Take your time. Do not rush.

3) The above is how it was really done. The idea being that the central tanks have as much covering fire as possible from those on the flanks. But there is no perfect solution. If losses start to get too high, say three Panthers or so… call the attack off. This is also realistic.

4) Remember, in the real world there are limits to the extent to which one can protect a flank, particularly in more open terrain. During the Korsun operation the newly reequipped, 60 strong, Panther battalion of Grossdeutschland was shot to pieces just as describe above.

All good fun,

All the best,

Kip.

[Keke]

Originally posted by kipanderson:

1) For a response to the Zetterling view of Kursk read the recent book by Steven Newton, Kursk the German View. It ends with four essays; one of which deals head on with Zetterling. In short, the Germans were bled white. Newton goes back to the same German records Zetterling used, but digs far deeper. But let’s not turn this into an argument over Kursk.

Well, I'd be really interested to know what kind of numbers Newton presents then. Only thing I know about the book is that it constantly misspells Leibstandarde as "Liebstandarde", hehe. Anyway, if the conclusion there is that the Germans bled white, then we have a huge mispresentation of facts in one book or another...

Originally posted by kipanderson:

4) Remember, in the real world there are limits to the extent to which one can protect a flank, particularly in more open terrain. During the Korsun operation the newly reequipped, 60 strong, Panther battalion of Grossdeutschland was shot to pieces just as describe above.

And my point was that it didn't happen in Kursk battles to significant extent. No 40% losses or more for every Panzer coy in attack...

[Keke]

Originally posted by no_one:

Looks awesome Keke!

If the total points for this operation arent too high(IOW,if the PBEM files wont be gigantic),I'd be more than willing to help playtest it.

This is,of course,assuming that it will be playable PBEM,which I hope it will

Thanks. It will definitely be for PBEM only, but it will be quite big. I will scale down the troops though.