6km x 4km map of Prokhorovka region

[Andreas]

I am sure you don't need me to answer that one. Just think of people with low-end machines, and don't put all the craters in that you put into that sodding Sirangarblegarblefinnish map I am playing against Sergei.

[Keke]

Originally posted by Andreas:

I am sure you don't need me to answer that one. Just think of people with low-end machines, and don't put all the craters in that you put into that sodding Sirangarblegarblefinnish map I am playing against Sergei.

Lol...won't make that mistake again...Anyway it is the scenario I'm working on as of now. It'll be a static operation modelling three days of battle, and all the craters will be provided by the artillery of both sides during the battle. When you see the map (there's a screenshot earlier in this thread) you'll see the difference when the map is made with Mapping Mission from a 1:20,000 topo-map instead of directly from a book...

[kipanderson]

Keke, hi,

Andreas can clearly more than look after himself, so I will just keep to a very few points.

When it comes to the Zetterling book…. I have indeed read it, but it got culled out of my collection some time back. I did not need Newton to tell me it was poor military history; but it is great to have Newton’s very well researched figures to illustrate just how wrong Zetterling is.

Any military history book should do a number of things, one of which is to leave an accurate impression of the likely reality at the time. A reader of the Zetterling book would emerge with the impression that German platoons who took part in the first five days of the assault saw their strength fall from around 30… to say 20-25 men… whatever. In fact we now know that if they started at around 30 men they will have fallen to an average of 7-8 men, amongst the German divisions actually involved in the assault.

At Kursk the Soviets did suffer the loss of too many tanks. The reason is that they persisted in counter attacking German armour with their own armour. Contrary to popular belief, in most cases, the best form of defence… is just that…defence. Post Kursk the SOP of the Soviets was to go onto the defensive as soon as what we might call “Uber” German armour was encountered. i.e. they would shift their attack some kms to the flanks. This is what happened to the unfortunate, 60 strong Panther battalion at Korsun.

I am lucky to have a very extensive collection of military history books, and I am sure we could all happily swap sources for hours. Luckily, volume VII covering the Kursk period, of the stunning "Germany and the Second World War" series, is due out this year… in English… may already be out in German. I have seen these books described as the finest works of military history available… who knows, we all have likes and dislikes. But if you do not already have the German version of volume VII, I suggest you get it, assuming you understand German… if not wait for the English version later this year. I am absolutely confident the authors of volume VII will take the same line as Newton… not Zetterling. (Volumes IV and VI, covering the first 21 months of the war in the east, were of breathtaking quality.)

All good fun,

All the best,

Kip.

PS. If searching in Amazon for the Germany and the Second World War series… use one of the authors… Horst Boog, to find them.

[Aragorn2002]

Keke, did you ever post this map?

[jacobs_ladder2]

Sounds like a few people in here know there way around a map. Any chance of being able to hunt down a period topo map for the Smolensk, Belarus area?

Also, what is map mission?

Kip, thank you for the link to the Ukraine map. I have been working on an OoB for the various battles in the Crimea in 41 and 42 and was having a bit of trouble finding maps from the period.

Cheers

Paul