Why do tanks get better when the germans capture them

[Cthulhu Dreams]

I've noticed with T-34's that their performance improves very markedly as a result of being captured.

For an example of what I mean, add 4 IND. captured T-34 (43 models) vs 4 of the matching soviet models.

Set the date to May 1945 to eliminate crew quality as a factor.

Make the map pefectly level, and don't issue them any orders.

At equivelent experince, the germans

A) Aquire their targets faster.

Fire first in the engagement

C) Will kill all the soviet tanks with 0 or 1 loss to themselves every time.

Why is this the case? It looks to me like the tank gets magically better because it's crewed by germans - but maybe I'm missing something?

[flamingknives]

Check the unit stats? Do the German versions have radios? This affects reaction time.

The Germans have better quality ammunition too, so if they hit they are more likely to kill.

[stikkypixie]

I tried it myself. If I don't give firing orders the AI-enemy always fire first.

As for the germans winning, I also think it has to do with ammo quality.

[Andrew H.]

I know for captured soviet 76.2mm AT guns, the germans manufactured their own ammo in 76.2mm, which was better than the sov. ammo. I don't know whether this ammo was supplied to the captured T-34s, although I'm not sure why it wouldn't be, or why the Germans wouldn't make their own T-34 ammo (I don't know if there is a difference between the 76.2mm AT gun ammo and the ammo used by the T-34).

[JasonC]

It is German physics horsefeathers. You won't be far off if you just assume that everything Russian gets a .85 untermenschen multiplier. Fudge factors break uniformly for the Germans. This is just one of the more obvious examples.

A German T-34 will penetrate things that require 80mm penetration, out to 500m or so. Like the actual historical performance of the gun. The Russian one will not, bouncing regularly from StuG fronts at point blank etc.

The justification is said to be "ammo quality", the actual justification for it is highly questionable interpretations of figures reported in penetration tests by the two sides. The two countries used different measurement standards as to what counted as a penetration. The Russian standard was significantly harder.

(You can see this in captured ammo tests etc. No one seriously disputes they used a different standard and there is no reason they would have hit on the same one, for how far in a round has to be to "count").

All the differences this creates are instead ascribed to "substandard quality" on the Russian side, only, for the same piece of equipment. The same is done with armor quality modeling.

When you see T-34s slaughter T-34s with impunity and certainty, you know what is going on and it cannot be "spun". It is the performance of the 76 in Russian hands that is being undermodeled. The same undermodeling results in the StuG that is invulnerable to point blank. The main advocates involved have long since admitted that they should penetrate 80mm at 500 yards and that they do not. It will not be changed.

Russian ammo modeling is sometimes incredibly silly. The 85mm in the fall of 1943 regularly fails against 50+30mm plates at 500m or more, and failing more often than not even at close range. It improves to more like historical performance in 1944. No change in the listed stats in the windows, but the ammo modeling changes drastically.

(Incidentally, I believe the culprit here was comparisons to US 76mm and its shatter gap problems against Tiger front and Panther turret fronts at range, in the west. Those have been "double counted", along with "poor ammo quality". It is believable that 85mm might have problems against 100mm plates at first, but not against 80mm, which is what happens in CM).

The Russian 45mm had significantly better penetration at close range than is modeled. Holing a Panther from the side, or a vanilla 30mm side Panzer or StuG with any side angle to speak of, are tough (close range, very flat side shots needed) when they should be easy. Compare the 2 pdr on lend lease tanks, or the US 37mm.

[Andreas]

The German captured tanks are assumed to have better vision devices, cupolas. That gives them an advantage in acquiring the enemy tanks, all other things being equal.

[JasonC]

Sorry Andreas, that has nothing to do with it. Test it. Button one side and not the other if you like. Rotate turrets. The 76mm from a German-driven T-34 simply penetrates the turret front of a Russian driven T-34, and a 76mm from a Russian-driven T-34 does not penetrate the turret front of the German-driven T-34, at the same range.

[DEY]

Well I just ran a test with four german captured T34-m41 models versus four russian T34-m41 models.

After three turns on default size, flat featureless map.

Germans have 3 killed tanks and one driven off.

Russians have 3 killed tanks and one still standing it's ground ready too fight.

[stikkypixie]

You can always take a Russian KV to fight captured T34's and see the effect for yourself.

[DEY]

Okay just tested the T34 model 42's.

Germans have four T34-m42's and Soviets four T34-m42's again on a default featureless map.

This was real bad for the german T34's this time.

After 3 turns,

Germans have 3 tanks killed and again another one backed off the map.

Russians have one killed and three standing their ground ready too fight still.

So I can't see where the deck is stacked on the german side of things.

Oh by the way both these test were done with the year set for 1943.

[JasonC]

At 400m mebe, to the each lost 3 claim - that is pure luck of the early hits because everything can go in, in either direction. Try it at 800m or 1000m. At 1000m, the German shots will go right through the 60 degree sloped upper front hull. The Russians bounce. (A rare lower hull hit might give a partial pen). 800m 4 on 4 head to head, in 1 minute 4 dead Russians, all Germans OK. 1000m 4 on 4 head to head, in 1 minute 4 dead Russians, 1 German bailing out.

[DEY]

The map for the above two tests were the default width which is 800 by 800 meters wide.

I redone the model 42 test at 1040 meters and after turn one all german T34's are killed.

All russians T34's are in perfect working order.

All three tests are done with independant, regular experienced crews for both sides in the year 1943.

[ April 03, 2005, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: DEY ]

[JasonC]

Sorry, I don't believe a word of it. I can see the results right in front of me, and the German shots all go in at 800m to 1000m with upper hull hits, and the Russian shots bounce. I am using Kursk era T-34s for both sides.

[DEY]

Sorry, I don't believe a word of it.

Frankly I don't care what ya believe.

I can see the results right in front of me, and the German shots all go in at 800m to 1000m with upper hull hits, and the Russian shots bounce. I am using Kursk era T-34s for both sides.

I posted my test results, I saw in front of me.

It's no doubt that it's damn odd that each time I ran these test the germans always get slaughtered, it should swing over to them winning a slugging match once and awhile. So it would seem for me to be things in reverse of the OP's problem.

So maybe we found another quirky bug.

[JasonC]

I've now done repeated tests with the 42 models and the 43 models. The 42s are an even fight at 1000m, both sides killing each other easily when they connect. The 43s, the Germans are heavily favored at 800m and 1000m. At close range, it is again an even fight, both sides dangerous to each other.

[Cthulhu Dreams]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

Check the unit stats? Do the German versions have radios? This affects reaction time.

The Germans have better quality ammunition too, so if they hit they are more likely to kill.

The units are exactly the same in all respects (radios, cupolas, blah, blah) except reported ammo quality which has nothing to do with my first two claims.

I am going to run some more tests. I only ran 8 initially, but another person reported similar results when I mentioned it to him.

Edit: Another observation, the german 43 (late) ones cost 16 more points than the soviet 43 (late) model.

Testing Methodolgy: Flat map. Default map size and paramters. 4 Tanks present on either side. T-34 43 (Late) used on both sides. Date set to May 1945.

Game loaded as hotseat, no orders issued for either side.

Edit2: First test, all soviet tanks driven off for 2 german casulties.

Test two: all soviet tanks abanonded or KO'ed for one ab. german.

Test Three: 1/1 Ko/ab split for germans, 2/2 sobiet tanks ko'ed/ab.

Test Four: 1 german Ab. 3 soviet ab, 1 ko.

[ April 03, 2005, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: Cthulhu Dreams ]

[Ardem]

I have to agree with Cthulhu they are similar results of have run before, maybe our computers just give bias results LOL.

[Bigduke6]

Dey is blowing smoke. Cthulu is right. JasonC is right.

I decided the statiscal samples that were being used in previous tests were too small, so I set up a gun-range scenario with twenty tanks on a side.

This is the test I ran:

Time: July 1943

Vehicle: Both sides hav 20 x T-34 1943 late

Range: 750 - 780 meters

Crew Quality: Vets

I ran the test three times. Here are the results with all hits logged for the first salvo of 20 tubes, i.e. twelve seconds into the turn, and then results compiled for after a minute of firing.

TEST 1

Germans firing first twelve seconds against Soviets, damage/results against Soviets:

Penetrations/survived: 2

Gun hit: 1

Panic/retreat: 3

Flaking: 2

KO: 1

Misses: 12

Soviets firing first twelve seconds against Germans, damage/results against Germans:

Ricochets: 7

Misses: 13

End of first minute results, Soviet situation:

KO: 10

Abandoned: 6

Bailing out: 1

Panic: 1

Shocked: 2

End of first minute results, German situation:

Combat-ready: 20

TEST 2:

Germans firing first twelve seconds against Soviets, damage/results against Soviets:

Penetrations/survived: 1

Penetration/crew casualty: 1

Gun hit: 0

Panic/retreat: 3

Flaking: 0

KO: 3

Ricochet: 1

Misses: 11

Soviets firing first twelve seconds against Germans, damage/results against Germans:

Ricochet: 6

Partial Pen: 2

Misses: 12

End of first minute results, Soviet situation:

KO: 7

Abandoned: 6

Bailing out: 3

Panic: 2

Gun-Damanged/Shocked: 1

Combat-ready: 1

End of first minute results, German situation:

Bailing out: 2

Immobile: 1

Combat-ready: 17

TEST 3:

Germans firing first twelve seconds against Soviets, damage/results against Soviets:

Penetrations/survived: 1

Penetration/crew casualty/panic: 1

Gun hit/damaged: 1

Panic/retreat: 4

Flaking: 0

KO: 1

Mobility kill: 1

Ricochet: 0

Misses: 15

Soviets firing first twelve seconds against Germans, damage/results against Germans:

Partial Pen: 1

Mobility kill: 2

Ricochet: 6

Misses: 11

End of first minute results, Soviet situation:

KO: 7

Abandoned: 6

Bailing out: 2

Panic: 0

Gun-Damaged/Shocked: 1

Combat-ready: 4

End of first minute results, German situation:

Abandoned: 1

Immobile: 3

Combat-ready: 16

I'll put my conclusions in a separate post.

[Bigduke6]

Comments/conclusions on above test:

1. IF ANYTHING, JASONC IS UNDERESTIMATING THE "UNTERMENSCHEN" FACTOR USED BY CMBB TO MAKE SOVIET ARMORED VEHICLES, ARTIFICIALLY, LESS EFFECTIVE THAN THEY ACTUALLY WERE.

The only diffence between the two forces in the above test was nationality. The vehicles were exactly the same, as were the weapons and ammunition. Armor quality was the same. So was the crew quality. Neither side had better optics, a better tactical situation, a better angle on the other armor, etc. It was 20 German-crewed T-34s firing against 20 Soviet-crewed T-34s at a range of 750 meters or so.

The results show the game is stacked against the Soviet, and it is well worse than the 15 per cent "untermenschen discount" that JasonC has referred to.

On average, at the end of the shooting match the Germans took something like 10 per cent casualties. The Soviet force was destroyed utterly.

I could perhaps understand this if it was Tigers vs. T-34/76. But it wasn't. The only variant was the nationality of the crew. Yet the German crew was roughly nine times more effective, at that range, than the Soviet crew.

2. THE CMBB GAME ENGINE MAKES GERMAN-FIRED AMMUNITION SIGNIFICANTLY MORE EFFECTIVE AGAINST ARMOR THAN SOVIET-FIRED AMMUNITION, SIMPLY BECAUSE THE GERMANS ARE SHOOTING IT. THE ISSUE IS NOT ACCURACY OR AMMUNITION. IT IS THE NATIONALITY OF THE CREW THAT DETERMINES THE ARMOR-PIERCING EFFECTIVENESS.

This was not a situation where the Germans were firing 76.2mm rounds supposedly perform better than Soviet-manufactured rounds.

A check of the unit data on each side's vehicles showed that both sides were using the plain-vanilla Soviet 76.2mm gun with 81mm of penetration at point-blank range, 65mm of penetration at 1000m, and a muzzle velocity of 680mps.

Further, the game engine appears to play the gun accuracy side of the equation fairly. A check using the LOS tool showed that at 750m the rated chance to hit, be it the German or Soviet side, was between 43 and 48 per cent. T

Tellingly, the LOS tool informs the German player chance of penetration is "rare". The LOS informs the Soviet player the chances of a Soviet-fired 76.2 AP round of penetrating a German-crewed T-34/76-late are "none."

This is a load of crap. Why should the same AP round perform significantly better, just because it was a German pulling the trigger?

3. THE CMBB GAME ENGINE BASED ON THIS TEST MAKES A GERMAN-FIRED AP ROUND, ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, PERFORM AT LEAST 20 - 25 PER CENT BETTER THAN THE SAME ROUND IF A SOVIET FIRES IT.

The key data here is the ricochets. In all three tests the number of hits in the first twelve seconds was the same for both sides, but the number of penetrations was radically different, with the German 76.2mm AP rounds breaking through Soviet T-34/76 late armor roughly 6 - 8 times more efficiently, then the same round fired by a Soviet crew in the other direction.

Look at the numbers for the first twelve seconds' of firing; i.e., the first salvo. Where the Germans hit and have a chance to penetrate, the Soviets hit roughly the same number of times, but don't have a chance to penetrate.

There are two way I can think of to explain this. Either game engine magically directs German-fired rounds to the thinner portions of Soviet armor, or the game engine somehow links AP round performance with the firer's nationality.

From what I could tell from my test hits were more or less evenly distributed, and certainly the German rounds were striking, rather than avoiding, the Soviet turrets.

This being the case, I conlude a German-fired round in CMBB has a 20-25 per cent edge over a Soviet-fired round. I would note this is far more valuable to combat effectiveness than just 20-25 more points, as that margin generally is the difference between penetrating or pinging most East Front tanks at most East front engagement ranges.

CONCLUSION:

IF YOU PLAY CMBB AND YOU TAKE SOVIET, YOUR TANKS AND THEIR GUNS WIL BE IPSO FACTOR AT LEAST 20 TO 25 PER CENT WEAKER THAN THEY WERE IN REAL LIFE. WHAT'S WORSE THAT WEAKNESS WILL MOST APPARENT AT COMMON COMBAT RANGES, I.E. 400 - 1000 METERS.

IF YOU PLAY CMBB AND YOU TAKE GERMAN, YOUR ABILITY IN THE GAME TO DEFEAT SOVIET ARMOR WILL BE BETTER THAN IT WAS IN REAL LIFE BY 20 TO 25 PER CENT, AND PROBABLY MORE BECAUSE THE GAME IS GOOD AT REPLICATING ENGAGEMENT RANGES OF 400 - 1000 METERS, SO AT THESE CRITICAL RANGES YOU AS THE GERMAN WILL FREQUENTLY BE IMMUNE TO SOVIET AP ROUNDS IN THE GAME, WHEN ACTURAL GERMANS WERE VULNERABLE IN REAL LIFE.

IF YOU ARE PLAYING A QUICK ARMOR BATTLE ON A COMPUTER-GENERATED MAP, YOU ARE A FOOL IF YOU TAKE SOVIETS. THE GAME ENGINE STACKS ARMOR ENGAGEMENTS AGAINST YOU.

[Wicky]

With Vet v Vet there is a believe an advantage to the Germans as they, if I recall correctly, perform an experience level above that of the Soviet equivalent.

You'd need to rule that out or pit Soviet Vet against German regular and then look at the results.

[Cthulhu Dreams]

No, the way you fix that is change the date to a later date

[DEY]

Well I run that model 42 test again at 1040 meters and finally it worked out that the germans just came out a tad ahead in this match.

After turn 3,

Germans have two dead burning tanks, one panic and one in perfect fighting order.

Russians are all killed.

I have the battle saved at turn 3 if anybody wants me to email it to ya.

Tried the model 41 again at the 800 meter range.

At turn 3,

Germans have two killed and one driven off map. one is still in working order ready to fight.

Russians have two killed and burning and two still in working order ready to fight, but I suspect one may be gun damaged.

Again if anybody wants to take a look I have the battle saved at turn 3.

There is no special code written or any bug that makes german capture AFV's better then the original owners counterpart.

[Bigduke6]

I tested 20 tanks vs. 20 tanks. I ran the test three times. The results are always the same: the Germans absolutely demolish the Russians, and the main reason they do so is that their 76.2mm rounds penetrate regularly, and the Russians' 76.2mm rounds do not.

Dey's sample is too small. 3-4 tanks is not an indicator of trends. The smaller the sample the greater the importance of a chance/lucky hit.

I am running a 20 vs. 20 test, and I have run three times. This means I have tested sixty tank-to-tank engagements, while Dey has tested if I am counting right six.

My results are more valid. They show the Germans to be overwhelmingly superior, and what's more that Germans are overwhelmingly superior despite the fact that they are using foreign vehicles.

Wicky's objection is irrelevant. It is also logically unsound. In the first place even if a German veteran tank crew somehow functioned more efficiently than a Soviet veteran tank crew, that would have no bearing on the performance of the ammunition when it went down range.

I repeat, my tests show conclusively the combat difference between two sides to be that German-fired 76.2mm rounds penetrate T-34/76 at 750m. Soviet-fired 76.2mm rounds, general, fail to do the same thing.

Second, since when is a German veteran crew superior to a Soviet veteran crew? In a foreign tank? On what grounds?

Cthulu's comment is irrelevant. What does year have to do with it? The issue is whether the game makes a tank with a German crew more effective in terms of armor-piercing ability than the same tank with the same ammunition with a Soviet crew.

I maintain the engine is slanted heavily in favor the Germans. Do the same test I did, and prove me wrong.

I just ran it again. After one minute of firing the Soviet situation was this:

Abandoned: 8

Immobilized: 2

KO: 6

Bailing out: 1

Bad Morale: 1

Combat-ready: 2

This was the German situation:

Immobilized: 2

KO: 1

Combat-ready: 17

As before, the Soviet side seemed to score hits at the same rate as the Germans. The difference was that German hits penetrated most of the time, and the Soviet hits, almost never.

If some one has a better explaination than slanted programming, I am glad to hear it.

[Glider]

Originally posted by Bigduke6:

...

A check of the unit data on each side's vehicles showed that both sides were using the plain-vanilla Soviet 76.2mm gun with 81mm of penetration at point-blank range, 65mm of penetration at 1000m, and a muzzle velocity of 680mps...

Hm, for T-34M43(late) my CMBB shows a difference in penetration tables.

Soviet T-34:

angle 0 - 81 (100m) ... 51 (2000m)

angle 60 - 40 (100m) ... 31 (2000m)

German T-34:

angle 0 - 81 (100m) ... 60 (2000m)

angle 60 - 50 (100m) ... 40 (2000m)

[Glider]

My guess is, if there is actually no hardwired German advantage and the above penetration tables apply, that German and Russian T34M43(late) would be about equal at short ranges, but due to the ammo quality advantage (see penetration tables) the German ones would be much better at 1000m+.