Changed penetration in 1.03 for Russian 85mm APBC?

[Redwolf]

Seems the penetration values for new AP ammo for the 85mm in April 1944 have been modified in the last patch.

0 131 113 98 67 armor piercing (ap)

30 102 89 79 56 792 m/sec

60 45 43 38 30 AP (large he charge)

0 120 110 97 77 armor piercing (ap)

30 109 100 90 73 800 m/sec

60 56 50 47 40 blunt-nosed APBC

So, as you see, the base performance at low angles at close range is less than the old AP, only long-rang and high angles are better now.

Pretty bad news against some of the cats.

[Soddball]

Originally posted by redwolf:

Seems the penetration values for new AP ammo for the 85mm in April 1944 have been modified in the last patch.

0 131 113 98 67 armor piercing (ap)

30 102 89 79 56 792 m/sec

60 45 43 38 30 AP (large he charge)

0 120 110 97 77 armor piercing (ap)

30 109 100 90 73 800 m/sec

60 56 50 47 40 blunt-nosed APBC

So, as you see, the base performance at low angles at close range is less than the old AP, only long-rang and high angles are better now.

Pretty bad news against some of the cats.

I would have said that it was pretty good news against the Hetzer, Jpz-IV, Jagdpanther, Panther, etc. I'm happy to trade a few mm at close ranges and against flat armour angles, since any compentent German opponent will try to keep the range as long as possible and look for hull-down and angle shots.

[Redwolf]

The improved performance at angles doesn't really help against Hetzers and Panthers.

At 500m the APBC round will still not penetrate the sloped plates, even with the improved performance at high angles. The only way to kill them from the front is to hit a curved surface and gets the dice roll of a low angle, hence it is the performance against non-sloped armor that counts.

Try it out in the editor, the AP/HE-charge and the APBC round get practically the same kill chances now. In earlier patches the kill chances went up when the 85mm got the APBC round in April of 44.

EDITed to add: I remember the earlier thread "The T-34/85 owns the Hetzer" on this board. This is not the case anymore in 1.03.

[ June 17, 2003, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Soddball]

Originally posted by redwolf:

The improved performance at angles doesn't really help against Hetzers and Panthers.

At 500m the APBC round will still not penetrate the sloped plates, even with the improved performance at high angles. The only way to kill them from the front is to hit a curved surface and gets the dice roll of a low angle, hence it is the performance against non-sloped armor that counts.

Doesn't the Panther have a 'curved' turret front? Does the Hetzer too? I have a wierd thought that it might well have 'curved' upper hull front, in which case the performance would be improved against this kind of target.

Nevertheless, it is still the case that with performance improved against sloped armour and at longer range, the advantage to the Germans has diminished. Consider the StuG (that popular unit), hull-down behind a hill at 1,500m with a 30 degree slope (for example), which can now clearly be penetrated by round from the new figures, whereas the 1.02 StuG couldn't.

[ June 17, 2003, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: Soddball ]

[Redwolf]

I think you didn't understand my comment about the curved Hetzer and Panther armor.

When a curved surface is hit, an angle is chosen randomly subject to some kind of distribution. But for the Panther's turret and the Hetzer's upper hull there is no hope of penetration if a high angle is drawn, even with the round which was imprived for high angles. So the T-34/85 can only penetrate when a low angle is drawn. But then the new round's improvement for high angles is meaningless. So overall Hetzer and Panther are more survivable against the new 85mm round in 1.03 than in previous patches.

Enter the editor and look at the kill chances if you don't believe me.

You are correct that the performance is now improved against targets which have sloped but not too thick armor. As another example, the Jagdpanzer IV (early) (60mm front plate) is now in very bad shape when the APBC round enters the 85mm gun.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Well, I'm still bummed they forgot (?) to correct the Russian 122mm gun stats that Rexford posted about months ago...

[Soddball]

Originally posted by redwolf:

I think you didn't understand my comment about the curved Hetzer and Panther armor.

When a curved surface is hit, an angle is chosen randomly subject to some kind of distribution. But for the Panther's turret and the Hetzer's upper hull there is no hope of penetration if a high angle is drawn, even with the round which was imprived for high angles. So the T-34/85 can only penetrate when a low angle is drawn. But then the new round's improvement for high angles is meaningless. So overall Hetzer and Panther are more survivable against the new 85mm round in 1.03 than in previous patches.

Enter the editor and look at the kill chances if you don't believe me.

You are correct that the performance is now improved against targets which have sloped but not too thick armor. As another example, the Jagdpanzer IV (early) (60mm front plate) is now in very bad shape when the APBC round enters the 85mm gun.

Yes, I understand what you mean now about the curved armour.

I must admit that I'm not overly worried. A typical opponent for an 85mm-armed gun will be a StuG or Panzer IV. Panthers are always a concern, but their cost and rarity puts them at a numerical disadvantage. The only concern would be in a scenario without force picks.

Do you know what source BFc used when altering the stats for 85mm shells?

[Redwolf]

I'm not worried, for the same reason as you, the Panther is so expensive it is still fair.

I just found it baffling, I developed most of my armor limit rules with 1.00 and 1.01 and had to redo 1944 after re-checking with 1.03

The Hetzer is seriously underpriced now, though, especiallyu if you compare it with the Jagdpanzer IV (early). The Hetzer is much more resistent against shots from typical opponents (which carry the 85mm). A hulldown Hetzer is now very hard to kill from T-34/85 and SU-85.

[Soddball]

Originally posted by redwolf:

I'm not worried, for the same reason as you, the Panther is so expensive it is still fair.

I just found it baffling, I developed most of my armor limit rules with 1.00 and 1.01 and had to redo 1944 after re-checking with 1.03

The Hetzer is seriously underpriced now, though, especiallyu if you compare it with the Jagdpanzer IV (early). The Hetzer is much more resistent against shots from typical opponents (which carry the 85mm). A hulldown Hetzer is now very hard to kill from T-34/85 and SU-85.

I'm not especially worried about the Hetzer. I'm sure you remember the popularity of the Hetzer in CM:BO, since it was largely invulnerable from the front and had a powerful gun.

However, the Hetzer is a blind, slow-firing pig in CM:BB and whilst we might see an increase in Hetzer popularity with this change, I doubt very much that it will stop people buying StuGs and P-IVs in preference.

[kipanderson]

Hi,

Someone has no doubt already mentioned this, but here goes anyway.

Do remember that the Hetzer has 85% armour quality. It makes a lot of difference. It means that the Soviet 85mm gun, firing APBC rounds, will more often than not achieve a Partial Penetration at around 500m. A Partial Penetration with an 85mm round is very bad news indeed. This is the case even if the round strikes the highly sloped portion of the front armour, not one of the less sloped “curved” portions which it will penetrate with ease.

The Hetzer still has the advantage over the T34/85, but it is not immune.

All the best,

Kip.

[Redwolf]

Well, my tests are from the kill chance as displayed in the editor, which is including computation of all these factors, and it lists the Hetzer as very strong now. A quick test of 10 hulldown Hetzer and 10 hulldown T-34/85 at 550m with the new ammo reveals that this carries on to practice, no Hetzer dies although there are plenty of hits.

I am especially baffled at the much higher price of the early Jagdpanzer IV now which is much weaker.

So whatever tests you did with old patches (see the "T-34/85 owns the Hetzer" thread) is invalid now.

[Redwolf]

I just noticed that the price of the 85mm AA gun does down from 74points to 59 points when the new ammo gets introduced.

Seems there is not too much confidence in the new round here

[kipanderson]

Hi,

I did a quick test.

Used six SU85Ms v two Hetzers. Range 510m.

The result was 12 hits on the Hetzers in one minute, both Knocked Out. 5 Ricochets, 5 Partial Penetration, 2 Full Penetrations. All but two of the hits were on the Upper Hull. If you assume both the lower hull hits penetrated, this means there is a 50% chance of a Partial Penetration with an Upper Hull hit at 500m.

The Hetzer has the advantage over the T34/85, but it is not immune. Given that the Hetzer is of a generation of German AFVs that will have been designed with the Soviet 85mm gun in mind, it is not a surprise that it fairs well against it.

All good fun,

all the best,

Kip.

[tools4fools]

Originally posted by kipanderson:

Hi,

I did a quick test.

Used six SU85Ms v two Hetzers. Range 510m.

Try 6 SU85 against 6 Hetzers. Separate each pair by lines of woods that no pair has LOS to the others. Run the test again...

[Redwolf]

Hey folks, you don't have to convince me that the Hetzer can be killed. Especially not when it's hull-up (the lower hull can even be penetrated by a 75mm Sherman).

All I say is: those people who tested in earlier patches and found even hulldown Hetzers are pretty vulnerable to 85mm fire form April 44 on - you better watch out, it doesn't apply anymore.

People on the tactics forum were recommending taking on defending Hetzers with T-34/85 like you would take on Nashorns with T-34/76. You could do that in earlier patches, but with 1.03 you can't.

[MikeyD]

I believe some (and I emphasise some) of the change in 85mm penetration performances you're seeing has something to do with BFC altering APBC penetration specs against face-hardened vs homogeneous armor (increased for the first, reduced for the second) to fall in line with new data ferreted-out by Rexford. i believe this change makes the (homogeneous armor) Tiger a tougher opponent, and other vehicles somewhat easier to hole.

Previous posts (by Rexford) hint that the Germans didn't fully grasp the concept behind the blunt-nosed Russian projectiles and were slow to abandon the inferior face-hardened armor... or at least that's how I interpreted the old posting.

[ June 19, 2003, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[manchildstein (ii)]

if the jgpz iv is much more expensive than the hetzer, does the jgpz make up for it with superior ammo loadout and/or faster firing rates?

one thing about the hetzer; it's vulnerable to the side and rear. i don't know about the soviet 12.7 mg but the american .50 cal can take the hetzer out. i'm sure the russian atr would penetrate consistently in any event.

and in addition to that, from the front the hetzer has to be hull down. so what we have is perhaps just a limted use unit; must be hulldown and god help it if anything gets on its side or rear. it sounds like the type of unit a person could love one moment and hate the next.

it would be interesting for a defending axis player to use the hetzer as 'bait.' for instance make sure that the hetzer gets seen frontally, then expect that, in failing to deal with the hetzer from the front that the allied player will begin all manner of flanking attempts. in anticipation of such flanking attempts, load up those approaches with ambushes.