French ISU-152's?

[Hpt. Lisse]

While playing the cool operation "Festung Breslau", I had a Regular ISU-152 behind a building when a Stug IIIG came along. I rotated to the ideal position and waited for the easy prey to fall within my sights. But as soon as the Stug came within my line of sight, my unbuttoned assault gun immediately kicked into reverse and moved out of harm's way.

Range to target was 450 meters, at which the ISU-152's AP round penetrates 146mm of armor... enemy was "fully identified", not question marked... and we certainly had the drop on 'em. Unit's not Green or anything. Grumbling under my breath, I commanded the 152 to "Hunt" forward the next turn to engage the Stug. But once again, as soon as the LOS was had, my 152 reversed away from it as if it was a King Tiger! Damn, guys, if I wanted to play the French, I'd teach 'em to run backwards myself...

Any ideas? Would have the "cover armor" arc yielded different results?

Hpt. Lisse

[ June 26, 2003, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: Hpt. Lisse ]

[Guest PondScum]

The big Russian TD guns have suckful reload times - your crew are worried that if they miss, the target can kill them before they reload (they're ignoring the fact that StuGs rotate slower than a sloth on qualuudes, but you can't model everything...). The trick is to use shoot-and-scoot - when they're told to zip forward, shoot off their one big-ass round, and then scoot back behind cover to reload, they get much braver.

This of course means that they're pretty much useless in a static ambush, unfortunately.

[Hpt. Lisse]

Thanks PondScum, I'll give this a shot (so to speak). Still sounds like AI bullocks to me. They should at least fire once before hauling ass, or factor in a simple equation (If initial chance of hit> %50, then fire).

Hpt. Lisse

[Xavier]

Hpt Lisse,

Take off ze stuff you have in ze ass, it 'll give you some air to your brain :cool:

[Andreas]

Hehe.

Now, any more tired old jokes about the French attitude to war should maybe be on hold until the jesters have acquainted themselves with the comparative performance of US troops and the CEF in the Cassino battles in Italy. A constant complaint by the French was e.g. that the US tankers were too timid and unreliable.

I suggest John Ellis' "Cassino - the hollow victory". And here are a few lines from Prof. Richard Holmes' writeup on the battle on the BBC History Website :

[...]a French Expeditionary Corps, whose superb fighting quality is too often overlooked by Anglo-American historians [...]

a heroic attack by the North African troops of the French Expeditionary Corps on the high ground further north

(nb - these 'North-African troops' had a high proportion of white and metropolitan French soldiers, so they are not all Colonial cannon-fodder or Goumiers. In particular the leaders were overwhelmingly French.

Between the Liri and the sea, the French Corps made rapid progress through the Aurunci Mountains, and by the third week in May the Germans were in full retreat.

Contrast this with the dismal performance of the US leadership in the campaign, especially failure to exploit after the Anzio landing, Clark's mistake to go after Rome, and the hatchet job made of the Rapido crossing.

[ June 27, 2003, 06:20 AM: Message edited by: Andreas ]

[Andreas]

Here is the biography on the commander of the CEF in Italy, Gen. Alphonse Juin. Almost certainly the most (if not only) competent senior commander on the Allied side.

BTW, if you read it, the French defenders of Lille in 1940 were granted a parade under arms before disarming when they surrendered by the Germans, to honour their steadfast defense.

[Thin Red Line]

Thank you Andreas.

I sincerely hope CMAK will be be an opportunity for some of this forum members to revise their "judgement" by learning more on the immense sacrifices and the victories of the French in Italy.

[Bogdan]

Originally posted by Xavier:

Hpt Lisse,

Take off ze stuff you have in ze ass, it 'll give you some air to your brain :cool:

LOL

Sure it's not very careful to say that kind of %@#%£ ( ) about France or any, ANY nations involved in a war...

Which army/nation never lose or retreat ??

Anyway, I have also experienced KVI which retreat when approching StuG III by the rear :mad: It seems that this kind of assault gun have very bad and dangerous reputation in the Red Army

All the best.

[Joques]

Originally posted by Thin Red Line:

Thank you Andreas.

I sincerely hope CMAK will be be an opportunity for some of this forum members to revise their "judgement" by learning more on the immense sacrifices and the victories of the French in Italy.

Nah, much easier to believe Europeans are spineless. Doesn't require the effort to think outside of stereotype.

[Guest konrad]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Here is the biography on the commander of the CEF in Italy, Gen. Alphonse Juin. Almost certainly the most (if not only) competent senior commander on the Allied side.

Of course ,I have to add to that ,gen W. Anders was also ok:).

[Andreas]

I do think Juin may have been better at politics, but you are right of course.

So Juin and Anders probably the only competent Allied commanders in the battle for Rome. Later one may want to add Truscott.

[Andreas]

French surrender parade at Lille. After four days of resistance, the 1st Army in the city had to surrender only because they had run out of ammunition.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Hpt. Lisse:

Thanks PondScum, I'll give this a shot (so to speak). Still sounds like AI bullocks to me. They should at least fire once before hauling ass, or factor in a simple equation (If initial chance of hit> %50, then fire).

Hpt. Lisse

There was an extensive flamewar between Steve and me about this.

Steve ended up saying "it does the right thing, just too early" (ISU-122 retreating from Pz IV lang, but starting before the first shot went off so that it either fired on the move or not at all). Of course the people who didn't understand the difference between SU-122 and ISU-122 didn't help either.

Anyway, I tried the "I did the right thing, just too early" when I went straight over a red traffic light and was pulled over. Guess what, the cop said "if you do the right thing so early that it has no positive effects but only negative ones then it is not the right thing".

[White Phosphorus]

Heavily armed units above green should not be allowed to move if they have a round in the chamber.

[Guest konrad]

Yes ,let change this shamelessly titled thread in to pro -french:

WWII French resistance propaganda matchbook, gives instructions how to derail trains.

[Hpt. Lisse]

Easy fellows, all in the name of fun. I offically re-name this thread, "Non-compliant ISU-152's".

Redwolf, thanks for the input, I'm glad someone else has spoken out about their behavior. IMO, I think it's incorrect, and saddles the Russian attacker with yet another difficulty to overcome. Anyone wanna place bets on what happened on the Eastern front when a Stug III appeared in a ISU-152's gunsight with an AP round already in the chamber?

Did Steve site any particular material for this decision?

Hpt. Lisse

[Redwolf]

Other than speculating about my penis size none that I remember

And he was even wrong about that.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Andreas:

French surrender parade at Lille. After four days of resistance, the 1st Army in the city had to surrender only because they had run out of ammunition.

I see them still carrying their presumably unused bayonets. Those cowards! In winter war, many Finns were given only those, and then they destroyed two Soviet divisions. They proceeded to destroy six more after they were told to use the sharp point!

[Yaba]

Just a quick comment about the problem with the ISU 152's not firing. I have done a couple of tests and it the only way to likely get them to shoot is to use a armour covering arc. Otherwise they will opt for the retreat. The strange thing is (and feel free to correct me) one of the roles of the ISU 152 was for anti-armour. It carried those big AP rounds for a reason!

Cheers,