Biltong's Campaign Rules

[OBJ]

Hmmm, girlfriend decided to stay for a month... Hope she didn't bring any furniture with her, unless you wanted her to.

When you get a chance, give me your edits and thoughts. I play with modifications to time between battles and may also modify the probabilities on several other parameters. I highlighted on the battle calcs tab several parameter derivations that might be modified.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by OBJ:

Hmmm, girlfriend decided to stay for a month... Hope she didn't bring any furniture with her, unless you wanted her to.

When you get a chance, give me your edits and thoughts. I play with modifications to time between battles and may also modify the probabilities on several other parameters. I highlighted on the battle calcs tab several parameter derivations that might be modified.

Me wants her to . Somewhere back in my brain I remember those days when we lived in the same town...

Thoughts are out, mail sent yesterday.

Gruß

Joachim

[Greebo]

Question for the Gurus

So I fought a fae battles, and came out on top just. Now I have 120pts to spend on new Attachements.

So looking at the options, I decide what I really need is some more heavy fire power, and opt for a combo

150mm Inf Gun (60pts)

SPW 251/1 Halftrack (57pts)

My question, is this an acceptable choice, because the very next battle, was on a gentle slopes and open, my new toy, inflicted 100+ casualties, took out 6 AT guns (3 with one shot, it aimed at the middle front gun of 3 and overshot a little, all 3 appeared to go down to that single shot).

I can see that my Gun is going to be next to useless in my next battle Night with LOS 65m.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Greebo:

Question for the Gurus

So I fought a fae battles, and came out on top just. Now I have 120pts to spend on new Attachements.

So looking at the options, I decide what I really need is some more heavy fire power, and opt for a combo

150mm Inf Gun (60pts)

SPW 251/1 Halftrack (57pts)

My question, is this an acceptable choice, because the very next battle, was on a gentle slopes and open, my new toy, inflicted 100+ casualties, took out 6 AT guns (3 with one shot, it aimed at the middle front gun of 3 and overshot a little, all 3 appeared to go down to that single shot).

I can see that my Gun is going to be next to useless in my next battle Night with LOS 65m.

Yes.

The 251/1 is no problem. Guess many people use it and in 42 you get it in your core.

IIRC the sIG (150m InfGun) has a rarity of 40%. That allows you to pick it.

A rule in that context:

Only equipment above 40% is restricted. IIRC the rules say aux forces must have rarity of 40% or less, unless you rolled a large arty or air. Then you can buy anything. For attachments, I use units below 40% (rarity when I buy it - if it goes up later, I don't mind) - except if the battle before had large arty or air. Then I don't restrict my force.

Gruß

Joachim

PS: I used exactly the same, plus an armored car or a plt of inf. And I just like it. Try to position your gun in good cover, preferably with a ridge at 65m distance in LOS. Aim at the ridge. See the shots go wide. Now try to set up so the shells land where the enemy probably is.

PPS: Another use in low viz is to stop the enemy recce a few metres ahead of your forward positions by units a bit to the side (not your forward units - keep them hidden) See the enemy retreat to the next stretch of cover - preferably a small stretch. Let the first wave come at you. Open up with small arms. As sonn as you receive incoming from that cover, pound the edge of it from 66m distance (sIG has to be on the edge of cover or outside any tree cover (eg in rough, trench..) to have viz at max, aim 1 m before the cover). Include your mortars in the barrage - one at a time. The huge explosions will probably break most of the enemy in cover so there won't be anybody to fire back.

PPS: The sIG is an easy target for the AI. He will target it with mortars or arty.

[zukkov]

i got a sig as a selection in my 5th battle. it was a large town and good visibility. i found a good spot on a hill and blasted the hell out of several buildings with that baby. i forgot to check how many casualties it caused as it was only an auxilary, but it definitely helped my advance through that town on my way to total victory!

[Joachim]

Originally posted by zukkov:

i got a sig as a selection in my 5th battle. it was a large town and good visibility. i found a good spot on a hill and blasted the hell out of several buildings with that baby. i forgot to check how many casualties it caused as it was only an auxilary, but it definitely helped my advance through that town on my way to total victory!

Depending on terrain, I prefer two sIGs over a 150mm spotter. They are just lovely.

In the back of my brain there is an idea to enable the player to choose a sIg instead of a 7,5cm lIG as outlined by Biltong in the 2nd half of '42. Upgrade will likely cost a lot of favor... OTOH I'd like to keep the original idea to teach the player about several neglected weapons. Really have to think about that...

Gruß

Joachim

[OBJ]

Hey guys,

What's the latest rumor about a campaign feature in CMAK, or more likely, CMX2?

Anybody heard anything?

How about more campaign tools, like a quick operation generator? Anyone heard anything recently?

[zukkov]

haven't heard about any plans for a campaign/operation mode for either cmak or cmx2. i think the bfc boys know how a lot of us feel on the matter, so hopefully they haven't already ruled it out as a potential feature. i guess we'll have to wait and see....

[Joachim]

Originally posted by zukkov:

haven't heard about any plans for a campaign/operation mode for either cmak or cmx2. i think the bfc boys know how a lot of us feel on the matter, so hopefully they haven't already ruled it out as a potential feature. i guess we'll have to wait and see....

Hehe... time to update some of the infos what is going on with BCR.

Beginning on Friday, I have some 16 days hard earned rest (emergency may lead to work on Monday )

During these days, I plan to do the following

Check my changes for BCR '42 (South '42 v1.3)

Add first half of '43 to BCR based on South '42 v1.3.

With Jim's (OBJ) kind permission, I will use his auto-parameter sheet and fit it to South '42 v1.3, later to South '43 v1.0.

What I need are a few playtesters to check South '42 v1.3. v1.3 Can be used from Jan to Dec '42. Playing one or two games and reporting on the ideas/changes would be appreciated.

Mail me via the board function and I'll send you the rules as zipped Excel and Word files.

Gruß

Joachim

[Snarker]

Gents, SuperSulo's site is giving a 404 error...

[Vergeltungswaffe]

His site is now here:

http://home.swipnet.se/supersulo/biltong/

[Snarker]

Thanks much.

[OBJ]

Scarhead, go ahead with modding the Autoparameters for BCR42v1.3.

I should have you some comments today or tomorrow.

[Cabron66]

This is not a criticism of your rules. Just wanted to say that Biltaid is, in my opinion, a very good idea that makes this campaign accessible to a lot of different types of gamers. However, after using it for a while I don't see myself going back to all that paperwork and dice rolling.

Second, I sincerely hope this thing makes it all the way to the end because it would be a real shame to get to 1943 or 44 and never see 1945.

Third, the map packs are a bit more work when setting up battles, but they are sooooooo much better than the random maps. It would be good to see more of them.

Fourth, the campaign could be much improved with the addition of some historical context. I suggest you slip it right into Biltaid. News flashes, short articles, major events and even rumors would add a lot to the feel of the campaign.

Fifth, are you sure there was very little air support in the early part of the war? Seems like the Luftwaffe plays little or no role in the proceedings.

Last, great idea. Keep it up. If this thing were integral with CM it would a great deal of depth to the game.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Cabron66:

This is not a criticism of your rules. Just wanted to say that Biltaid is, in my opinion, a very good idea that makes this campaign accessible to a lot of different types of gamers. However, after using it for a while I don't see myself going back to all that paperwork and dice rolling.

Paperwork is automated for me and 12 battles git on 2 pages (Battlegroup and rules). Dice rolls are done in excel sheet.

Nevertheless I think BCR needs either an Excel-sheet or Biltaid for most people. I don't know about Java, never got it to run on my machine. Have to ask somebody to put the new rules into Biltaid, and I will assist in putting them into Biltaid. Just can't do it myself

What I will do (with OBJ) is to create an Excel sheet where the user just has to push buttons and insert changes in his battlegroup.

Second, I sincerely hope this thing makes it all the way to the end because it would be a real shame to get to 1943 or 44 and never see 1945.

Me, too. That's why I took over from Biltong

Third, the map packs are a bit more work when setting up battles, but they are sooooooo much better than the random maps. It would be good to see more of them.

Yes, I liked Kiev. But too create beautiful maps, I need help or a lot of time. It adds to the historic context.

Fourth, the campaign could be much improved with the addition of some historical context. I suggest you slip it right into Biltaid. News flashes, short articles, major events and even rumors would add a lot to the feel of the campaign.

Nice additions, but you can get them all across the internet. I guess there are several sites where major events from WW2 are listed.

Once you roll a new date, search the net for yourself. If you find some good sites, please share with us.

"No project ever faltered because it was to small"

Fifth, are you sure there was very little air support in the early part of the war? Seems like the Luftwaffe plays little or no role in the proceedings.

Close air support was scarce from what I read. Using CAS in CM is a big gamble, many people don't like it. Getting it every 10th battle (if no city and clear weather) should be enough. In '42, you'll probably get more from that as the new rules change the weather parameters (less rain, fog or snow...)

Last, great idea. Keep it up. If this thing were integral with CM it would a great deal of depth to the game.

Thank you, Biltong will like that.

2nd your wish.

Gruß

Joachim

[Cabron66]

Been playing some more and have come up with another minor point. The turn limit. With pure QB's there is little too say, but with the map packs I have a definite problem. The turn limit generated by Biltaid does not match what is necessitated by the maps. I just played a large battle (axis assault) in which I was given 34 turns on a medium map. The AI, as it turned out, went infantry happy and saddled me with the longest wait I've ever seen (outside of Operation Storfang) after pressing the go button.

After patiently playing 25 turns I realized there was nowhere near enough time for me to move my infantry across the map, position them for an attack and then defeat nearly 3500 men. Simply couldn't be done.

Some of the maps in the pack have reccomended turn limits (on the map list), but most don't. If you are planning on using these packs in the future (and I'm not sure you are), I suggest making them an integral part of Biltaid or provinding suggested turn limits (or a range)for all of them.

So much can effect the amount of time needed to fight a battle and Biltaid generates such a wide variety of parameters that the length of a battle on any given map could vary tremendously. With QBs you take what you get, but with map packs you have the benefit of being able to generate a range of turn limits for each map.

I realize this is a complicated issue and will be happy to provide more concrete date if it is required.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Cabron66:

Been playing some more and have come up with another minor point. The turn limit. With pure QB's there is little too say, but with the map packs I have a definite problem. The turn limit generated by Biltaid does not match what is necessitated by the maps. I just played a large battle (axis assault) in which I was given 34 turns on a medium map. The AI, as it turned out, went infantry happy and saddled me with the longest wait I've ever seen (outside of Operation Storfang) after pressing the go button.

After patiently playing 25 turns I realized there was nowhere near enough time for me to move my infantry across the map, position them for an attack and then defeat nearly 3500 men. Simply couldn't be done.

Some of the maps in the pack have reccomended turn limits (on the map list), but most don't. If you are planning on using these packs in the future (and I'm not sure you are), I suggest making them an integral part of Biltaid or provinding suggested turn limits (or a range)for all of them.

So much can effect the amount of time needed to fight a battle and Biltaid generates such a wide variety of parameters that the length of a battle on any given map could vary tremendously. With QBs you take what you get, but with map packs you have the benefit of being able to generate a range of turn limits for each map.

I realize this is a complicated issue and will be happy to provide more concrete date if it is required.

IIRC I already increased the range of the time limits in South 42 v1.3. "infantry only" does not increase the time limit, only force and map size matters. Maybe I'll have another look at that. OTOH you'll run out of ammo anyway, so a turn limit will help you secure your gains in other battles.

Remember that it is not BCR's goal to roll battles you can win. BCR doesn't know the meaning of "fair".

It is BCR's goal to give you some challenge, and try to keep them somewhat historic. Your assault run into heavy oppositon and will bog down. Tough luck, but that's life. There are other situations you can't win, like defending with 20% ammo against a 100% bonus. Your goal is to achieve the best result you can get. If this ain't a major victory, nobody complains. Even if you loose, you can earn favor. Try to minimize your losses, kill some mortars and guns, take some prisoners.

It is very seldom that I plan for a major victory. I usually go for one flag - this is my breakthru. Currently I am probing against about 1500 Soviets on a huge open map with gentle slopes. Wet ground slows my tanks. Glad the Soviets are low on ammo (20%). My infantry can move into blocking positions and spot where my tanks cleared the way, but I can not attack the enemy-held village in the centre of its positions. All I do is take one flag, clear the area around it and my PzIVf's level the village with the aid of an 7,6cm pAK and a 15cm InfGun. It is turn 32 out of 42, most of my tanks are out of MG ammo and I guestimate at least 1200 Soviets are still alive. There is absolutely no chance for me to capture another flag without loosing half of my forces. Not in 100 turns. So be it.

The map packs are a good add-on, but it is hard to put them into the rules or Biltaid. From the hip I'd say that the "deep" or "wide" ones should get some extra time. Many of them have a special turn limit, some don't. Trouble is it often depends on weather and force type how much turns are needed. Guestimating all parameters needed to make a map fair is a major task. A good scenario is playtested often - with fixed weather and fixed forces. If we had to playtest all maps for all parameters, we'd need lots of playtesters. We don't have them.

If you'd like to write some comments on available maps (including forces involved, weather, your initial plan and a short AAR), I'll look at them and decide whether it is necessary to increase the turn limits for given maps.

Yes, I plan to include map packs in the future. I am so desperate for good maps, I even intend on rating existing scenarios based on their maps (e.g. Action at xyz, (author name), huge, medium woods, gentle slopes, Axis attack or assualt, 45 turns).

[Cabron66]

Thanks Scarhead for the comments. I think you've given me more attention than I deserved, but I'm grateful.

I agree with you on the whole "randomness of war" thing, but with one exception. Please take this as costructive crtiticism. I enjoy BCR immensely and am, above all, grateful to you for your work.

I think objectives are given with the idea of obtaining them or at least with the reasonable hope of doing so. Of course random events play their part, but its hard for me to support your view that I should simply accept Biltaid given variables and the resulting impossible battles (which have been very infrequent) because that's the nature of war.

However, I won't belabour the point. What I thought was more important was to make an effort to reduce the impression of sheer randomness and the disagreement between Biltaid and the map packs.

I will go through the maps I have played so far and see if I can be more specific. Should I e-mail my points or simply post them?

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Cabron66:

Thanks Scarhead for the comments. I think you've given me more attention than I deserved, but I'm grateful.

I agree with you on the whole "randomness of war" thing, but with one exception. Please take this as costructive crtiticism. I enjoy BCR immensely and am, above all, grateful to you for your work.

I think objectives are given with the idea of obtaining them or at least with the reasonable hope of doing so. Of course random events play their part, but its hard for me to support your view that I should simply accept Biltaid given variables and the resulting impossible battles (which have been very infrequent) because that's the nature of war.

However, I won't belabour the point. What I thought was more important was to make an effort to reduce the impression of sheer randomness and the disagreement between Biltaid and the map packs.

I will go through the maps I have played so far and see if I can be more specific. Should I e-mail my points or simply post them?

Well, guess Biltong is the one to get the thanks. I just continue from 6/42 onwards.

Yes, there is a problem with the sheer randomness. You have to use a very sophisticated model to get a good prediction of reality. Simple models usually perform better than those that are complex, but not as complex as reality. And simple models are easier to grasp and to build. Thus it is a necessity to use them for things like BCR - even with Biltaid. This is not a problem for a player using Biltaid, but a problem for the designer creating the rules.

An occasional flaw must be accepted.

I think objectives are given with the idea of obtaining them or at least with the reasonable hope of doing so.

I strongly disagree with that. I've seen to many objectives given that can't be reached. S

Some example from the firm where I work: To fulfill all the objectives given by my CO, my plt commander would need some people doing some 4000 hours work next year. Budget says there is only one person and no paid overtime. Other projects suffer similarly.

Better known examples are the notorious "hold at all costs" orders from some idiot in Berlin. How many attacks faltered in RL? How often an order "Take that hill over there" was given. Somebody else got the command "Hold that hill". One objective would not be met.

Somewhere I read a post on the standard attack patterns. For the US in WW2 it was to send in a maneuver btn with another btn in overwatch. If the first attack failed, the roles were changed. This does imply that the maneuver btn sometimes got an objective that it could not fulfill.

I think it is an important part of BCR that you will not win every battle vs the AI. You have to learn to stop at the right moment, to evaluate if you can win or not. Your first objective is to keep your men alive to live to fight another day. The next objective is to win that battle.

To quote King Pyrrhus "Another of those victories and I will have lost the war".

The response is a bit lengthy cause this is a key problem within BCR. I guess many others have the same problem. It is important to discuss these problems, as feedback from the players is important for the future releases of BCR. Even if I say "this won't/can't be fixed" it does not mean I do not want it discussed.

Feel fre to mail or post your points, I'll receive them both ways.

Gruß

Joachim

[Cabron66]

You've convinced me. Within the confines of BCR and the "insulated" battlefield model provided by CM there is very little you could realistically do to reduce "randomness".

The best way would probably be to come up with a set of maps (say 2 or 300 at least) based on actual locations and operations. The maps would not cover the gambit of random parameters generated by Biltaid, but would instead be organized by dates and would reflect the terrain likely to be found by troops on the front line at that time. The maps would come with Russian forces already placed on them. Of course, the OOBs would all be meticulously researched and authenticated and the maps play-tested to ensure their "true to real lifeness." The remaining variables would be randomly generated, from a much narrower set, based on the number of the map.

That's all you have to do. Sounds pretty easy to me.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Cabron66:

The best way would probably be to come up with a set of maps (say 2 or 300 at least) based on actual locations and operations. The maps would not cover the gambit of random parameters generated by Biltaid, but would instead be organized by dates and would reflect the terrain likely to be found by troops on the front line at that time. The maps would come with Russian forces already placed on them. Of course, the OOBs would all be meticulously researched and authenticated and the maps play-tested to ensure their "true to real lifeness." The remaining variables would be randomly generated, from a much narrower set, based on the number of the map.

That's all you have to do. Sounds pretty easy to me.

Thanks for volunteering! Exactly what I planned for! When will you be able to deliver the first 100 maps?

Gruß

Joachim

[Cabron66]

Originally posted by Scarhead:

Thanks for volunteering! Exactly what I planned for! When will you be able to deliver the first 100 maps?

I had an idea the other day and just wanted to run it by you. I played a battle on a medium map and only managed to take one flag of four while not even passing midway on the field. Hating the thought of wasting the map, I decided to play a continuation of the battle.

Initially I thought it would be far too complicated, but it hasn't proven to be very hard. The most difficult thing is making sure the pillboxes and bunkers stay in the right places and keeping track of replacements and OOBs. After a few tries I worked out a system which allows me to fight 2-4 battles on a medium-sized map.

The new system is great, but not very compatible with Biltaid (except for keeping track of core units, determining weather and producing a few random variables). My only major problem is the determination of replacements. I've come up with some simplified equations to make this faster, but really I just don't know enough about the ETO to make accurate judgements.

Could you give me a few pointers? What could be done to realistically determine replacements and reinforcements?

[ September 27, 2003, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: Cabron66 ]

[GreenAsJade]

Where do I actually get BCR & Biltaid?

I looked through this thread, and googled like mad, but everything points to one place. At that one place I get:

The requested URL /~u21117402/biltong/ was not found on this server.

Que?

GaJ.

[zukkov]

go here

enjoy!

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Cabron66:

I had an idea the other day and just wanted to run it by you. I played a battle on a medium map and only managed to take one flag of four while not even passing midway on the field. Hating the thought of wasting the map, I decided to play a continuation of the battle.

Initially I thought it would be far too complicated, but it hasn't proven to be very hard. The most difficult thing is making sure the pillboxes and bunkers stay in the right places and keeping track of replacements and OOBs. After a few tries I worked out a system which allows me to fight 2-4 battles on a medium-sized map.

The new system is great, but not very compatible with Biltaid (except for keeping track of core units, determining weather and producing a few random variables). My only major problem is the determination of replacements. I've come up with some simplified equations to make this faster, but really I just don't know enough about the ETO to make accurate judgements.

Could you give me a few pointers? What could be done to realistically determine replacements and reinforcements?

Playing the same map and keeping the bunkers in the same place? I'd be interested in how you did that! The big problem in the Kiev pack of BCR '41 was that the bunkers were setup by the AI and units did not stay where they were on the imported map.

Replacements in the ETO? From what I read at "www.battlefield.ru" the Soviets had a chaotic replacement system - they took what was at hand. The Germans did the usual bookkeeping and tracked every wounded so he could later re-join his unit. Raising regiments or divisions in the same region eased that.

Replacements during an operation came from the "Feld-Ersatzbattalion" (FEB/forward replacement btn). Most division had a replacement btn at their home base, where basic training was conducted (or not) and one that stayed with the division. Replacements where drawn from the FEB, which was replenished from the home btn.

Most units were never at full strngth, so returning casualties could always join their old unit.

As CM models not just dead and heavily wounded, many casualties are shell-shock or panic or something that could more or less easily be healed in a few hours. Guess this is what the operations do in CM - you get many "casualties" back, while decimated squads or teams leave battle to have a cadre left around which to form the new squad.

When it comes to the quality of replacements - the higher the losses on all fronts, the worse the quality. Sometimes casualties return - then you may get vets. Sometimes they had good training at home and in the FEB (regular) sometimes they come directly from home. I never bothered to get an exact representation of the replcaement quality beyond that. Guess Biltong did the same.

Rule 1:

The quality decreases during the war

Rule 2:

In periods of heavy fighting (Stalingrad) or deadly weather (winter...), there is an additional penalty.

Hope that helps.

Gruß

Joachim