color me stupid -- but what was the role of jager troops

[mattman2000]

I see the companies listed in the game, but what did they do? Were they garrison/2nd line infantry, regular troops or what?

[Brightblade]

Jäger were/are light infantry.

Their name translates as "hunter" in English, and that´s what they were originally recruited from in the early 19th century.

They are more or less equivalent to the US army´s rangers.

"Gebirgsjäger" (= mountain troops) and "Fallschirmjäger" (= airborne) were further specializations of the original Jäger.

But don´t mix it up with "Feldjäger", because they are Military Police.

[Andreas]

Regular light infantry. The Wehrmacht had a set of light infantry divisions on a two regiment organisation, but otherwise pretty identical. If these came from the mountainous regions of Bavaria, or Austria, they were called Gebirgsjäger (these would also have special mountain guns). Otherwise they would just be leichte Divisionen (light divisions). There were five of these that were converted into Jägerdivisionen in summer 1942, 5., 8., 97., 100. and 101. leichte Division. Additionally, 28. ID was turned into 28. Jägerdivision.

I guess the doctrinal use for these formations was to fight in more constrained terrain, where command and control was not as easy with a traditional triangular division structure. It turned out very quickly though that they would just be used as ordinary infantry anyway, and that in this case a two-regiment structure was not good enough.

Additionally, there were sometimes independent Jägerbatallione present as Heerestruppen, probably often used for rear-area security (read - partisan hunting missions).

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Brightblade:

They are more or less equivalent to the US army´s rangers.

I would not agree with that - I am not aware that the Jäger received any kind of special forces training, or use. If you have such info, I would be very interested in it.

As with so many things, the use of the term Jäger was probably propaganda, and not much more than that. I guess Jäger just sounds more spiffy than leichte Infanterie.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brightblade:

They are more or less equivalent to the US army´s rangers.

I would not agree with that - I am not aware that the Jäger received any kind of special forces training, or use. If you have such info, I would be very interested in it.

As with so many things, the use of the term Jäger was probably propaganda, and not much more than that. I guess Jäger just sounds more spiffy than leichte Infanterie. </font>

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Propaganda may be too accusatory a word; I would settle for "tradition." Why else would the British Army have such things as "The Sherwood Foresters". We know they didn't learn to chop down trees or steal from the rich!

AFAIK the Sherwood Forresters, and most other regimental names in the Commonwealth forces go back to the mid-late 19th century, when the numbering of regiments was dropped.

The wholesale renaming of the leichte Infanteriedivisionen into Jägerdivisionen happened in summer 1942 over the course of a few weeks. Draw your own conclusions.

[Stoffel]

Rommel's son says something about these units in his fathers book Infantry Tactics.

Rommel once joined one of those fornmations and he had all pictures and paintings removed by hunting trofees just to be part of them.

he also stated that one had to be a hunter to join these formations.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Stoffel:

Rommel's son says something about these units in his fathers book Infantry Tactics.

Rommel once joined one of those fornmations and he had all pictures and paintings removed by hunting trofees just to be part of them.

he also stated that one had to be a hunter to join these formations.

That may have been true in the imperial German Army (I would not know), but it certainly was no longer true in 1942, when these formations were renamed (and those are the ones talked about in this thread). The renaming was not just for the divisions, also the regiments were renamed from Infanterieregiment in 'Jägerregiment', with no number change, and presumably without any change to training or equipment.

It is also not true today, a friend of mine served in a Bundeswehr Jäger formation in the late 1980s, and he was no hunter.

[Mouse]

Originally posted by mattman2000:

I see the companies listed in the game, but what did they do? Were they garrison/2nd line infantry, regular troops or what?

ISRT that the Gebirgsjäger troops spent most of the war hunting for Julie Andrews and the vonTrapp family singers...

[Brightblade]

Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Originally posted by Brightblade:

They are more or less equivalent to the US army´s rangers.

I would not agree with that - I am not aware that the Jäger received any kind of special forces training, or use. If you have such info, I would be very interested in it.

</font>

[Andreas]

I always thought the Rangers were some sort of specialised light infantry with special training from the get-go. Maybe I just fell for the myth though? :confused: There certainly were far fewer of them than there were Jäger formations in the Wehrmacht.

The main difference I can discern between a leichte Infanterie- (from 1942 Jägerdivision) and an ordinary infantry division is that it has only two infantry regiments. Otherwise the TO&E and OOB seem to be completely identical.

The Gebirgsjäger had special equipment (mules, mountain guns instead of lFH18, sometimes RCLs I believe), but not the Jägerdivision, AFAICT.

[Michael Dorosh]

US Rangers were modelled after the British commandos and originally intended for special operations. Look at their employment at Dieppe and Pointe du Hoc for evidence of this. They were going to be called Commandos originally IIRC but they wanted a more "American" name. They looked to Roger's Rangers from their own past and found a name they liked.

I should think the introduction of the term "Grenadier" at the same time as Jäger does demonstrate a desire to inculcate "new traditions" in the German Army (oxymoronic but sort of makes sense to me). Anyway, "propaganda" and "tradition" are probably the same thing in this sense, so it does little good to attempt to pick flyspecks out of pepper.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Andreas:

That may have been true in the imperial German Army (I would not know), but it certainly was no longer true in 1942, when these formations were renamed (and those are the ones talked about in this thread). The renaming was not just for the divisions, also the regiments were renamed from Infanterieregiment in 'Jägerregiment', with no number change, and presumably without any change to training or equipment.

It is also not true today, a friend of mine served in a Bundeswehr Jäger formation in the late 1980s, and he was no hunter.

The Finnish traitors who left the country during WWI to get military training from Germany and fight the Russians were organised into Jäger Battalion 27 in Lockstedt. I don't think being a hunter was any requirement back then, as many were university students.

In 1918 these Finnish activists were let to come back and join the civil war. Jean Sibelius then made this Jäger March (this version of it is pretty awful, btw).

Incidentally, my rank in Finnish army is Jääkäri, yet I only hunt mosquitoes (or vice versa, usually).

[Brightblade]

Then I wonder why they were used for the landing operation in Normandy. One should guess they were much too valuable to waste them there...

A bit of information on the US Rangers here and here.

[ August 20, 2003, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Brightblade ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Andreas:

I always thought the Rangers were some sort of specialised light infantry with special training from the get-go.

That's true AFAIK. They were specially selected vounteers who received training patterned after the British Commandos. I think they might have had some additional engineering skills too.

The main difference I can discern between a leichte Infanterie- (from 1942 Jägerdivision) and an ordinary infantry division is that it has only two infantry regiments. Otherwise the TO&E and OOB seem to be completely identical.

The Gebirgsjäger had special equipment (mules, mountain guns instead of lFH18, sometimes RCLs I believe), but not the Jägerdivision, AFAICT.

Hmm. You are probably much better informed on this than I, but I have carried the impression (no doubt garnered from wargames that may well have gotten it wrong) that the Jäger divisions had lighter equipment (meaning mostly the artillery, I suppose) and therefore greater mobility, especially in difficult terrain. I think I need to do more research on this...

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Brightblade:

Then I wonder why they were used for the landing operation in Normandy. One should guess they were much too valuable to waste them there...

Because their role had evolved (as had that of the Commandos after whom they were patterned). Originally, the Commandos were intended to make sudden, sharp hit-and-run raids on the coast of occupied territories. But by the time the Americans got into the war with both feet, the time had come to make large scale hit-and-stay invasions. Therefore, the Rangers (and now the Commandos too) became the invasion shock troops, tasked with capturing or neutralizing key installations such as coast artillery batteries that could hamper the invasion.

After D-Day, the Americans had difficulty identifying appropriate tasks for the Rangers and they were often just thrown into battle as ordinary infantry. This practice was usually protested by their commanders as a squandering of specialized troops, particularly as they often lacked the necessary supporting arms to function properly in the line.

Michael

[ August 20, 2003, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: Michael Emrys ]

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

Hmm. You are probably much better informed on this than I, but I have carried the impression (no doubt garnered from wargames that may well have gotten it wrong) that the Jäger divisions had lighter equipment (meaning mostly the artillery, I suppose) and therefore greater mobility, especially in difficult terrain. I think I need to do more research on this...

Michael

Well, I thought this as well, and then I looked at my copy of, err, bugger... the front page is gone... Well anyway, the book about 101. le Div. during the May 1942 battles destroying the Soviet offensive at Kharkov. The artillery regiment seems to have a normal complement of lFH18 and sFH18, just like any Infanteriedivision.

Well actually, there is a battery of sFH18, and a battery of lFH18 missing, as well as the complete I. Abteilung, but I would have to re-read the book to figure out why that is. The missing batteries are probably just the losses suffered during the winter battles and retreat.

[Pine59]

Sergei, I'm a fan of Sibelius so I thought I would check out the Jager March. "Pretty awful" is an understatement, ouch :eek:

[Thomas Goetz]

Just wanted to get back to the original question for a moment, or at least part of it. I'm not very familiar with the World War II jagers, but the origin of such troops goes back quite a ways, at least to the 18th century, perhaps even earlier.

As a quick refresher, the standard infantry of that period was equipped with a smoothbore, muzzle loading musket, and fought in nice neat lines. Jagers were light troops and skirmishers, largely recruited from hunters, as the name implies. Jagers tended to fight dispersed, in a very open formation compared to regular line troops. Jagers also used a different weapon, specifically a muzzle loading rifle. Not very efficient as a battlefield weapon, due to its very long reload time, but ideal for skirmishing and harassing fire, especially given its longer range when compared to the smoothbore musket.

The concept was not unique to the German states. The British created a couple of specialized Rifle regiments that saw service during the Napoleonic wars (Richard Sharpe, anyone?), and during the American Revolution there were a number of American Rifle Companies and regiments. There were also a couple of specialized Rifle units during the American Civil War, such as Berdan's Sharpshooters.

I suspect that as infantry combat evolved away from Napoleonic line tactics, the role of the light skirmishing troops became increasingly irrelevant, and the title was simply preserved as an honorific, much like the use of "Cavalry" as an official title of some mechanized forces in the US Army today.

[Redwolf]

The Jaeger divisionen (not <something>-jaeger, just Jaeger) are just taken the concept of the light divisions further.

The Wehrmacht always had light infantry divisions which were used in roles where quick movement was required, especially in following up the armor divisions and finish jobs those left aside or to function as a quickly deployable reserve.

Until the sumemr of 1942 these light divisions were organized differently only above battalion level. In the summer of 1942 they were also optimized at battalion level and below and renamed to "Jaeger" division.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by highlife:

Sergei, I'm a fan of Sibelius so I thought I would check out the Jager March. "Pretty awful" is an understatement, ouch :eek:

I actually have a GOOD version (with no vocals) of it as my CMBB intro music. If you'd like to share it, you can get it from this link (6MB, in RAR).

[Pine59]

Thanks Sergei, much better!

[Oddball_E8]

right! *whips out brush* time for some coloring!

[mattman2000]

Lot of responses. And quick ones, at that. Thanks for your help

[Andreas]

Just had a closer look at Nafziger. He says that the leichte Infanterie- (later Jägerdivisionen) were formed specifically for fighting in lower-lying wooded areas, where the specific mountaineer training and equipment was not required. This would probably explain the narrow organisation with only two regiments.

Unfortunately he does not say how/if this affected training. It is interesting to note though that all these divisions were formed in Bavaria, Czechia, or Austria, i.e. in parts of the Reich/occupation areas featuring a lot of broken and wooded terrain.