usmc_grunt Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 I've been trying to get a circle of friend's interested in playing CM,I've posted the CMBB demo on a ftp site so they could easily DL it.. but here's my problem. They just can't seem to get a hang of it,all of them enjoy Civ3 but they have never played this type of game,these aren't kid's but professional people who I'm sure will love CM eventually IMO once they get into the game alittle. My question.. what suggestion's do you have for getting these very solid player's whom I'm sure will love this game once they've tasted it..interested. How to make the switch from a Civ3 type game to the much more mature CM genre? thanks 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Mc Auliffe Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Maybe you can suggest a few good topical books for them to read. If they find the subject matter interesting, they may pick up on the games. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Tell them Civ3 is a piece of cake in comparison. Then challenge their manhood. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rucrazee Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 I have had the same problem. Combat Mission is not for everyone. I think guys who enjoy history, particularly, military history will natural gravitate towards it. Guys who like games that mentally challenge them should find it irresistable. If your friends enjoy history and mental challenges, you should have a winner. Now those that need the continuous adrenaline rush of a FPS or fast-paced RTS may not find the pace fast enough for them and/or they may not want to think that much. Since you friends enjoy Civ III which doesn't exactly break the sound barrier, I am sure they won't find this game too slow for them. No offence to BTS, but the demo may not leave them wanting more. I would sit them down at your house and hotseat with them. Explain why you are doing what you are doing and how things work perhaps with a scenario that has a little of everything in it. I am assuming you may have some military background based on your forum alias, so let them see for themselves that this is a game that involves actual military strategy. Hopefully this will help you in their conversion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_major_tom Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Originally posted by rucrazee: I have had the same problem. Combat Mission is not for everyone. I think guys who enjoy history, particularly, military history will natural gravitate towards it. Guys who like games that mentally challenge them should find it irresistable. If your friends enjoy history and mental challenges, you should have a winner. Now those that need the continuous adrenaline rush of a FPS or fast-paced RTS may not find the pace fast enough for them and/or they may not want to think that much. Since you friends enjoy Civ III which doesn't exactly break the sound barrier, I am sure they won't find this game too slow for them. No offence to BTS, but the demo may not leave them wanting more. I would sit them down at your house and hotseat with them. Explain why you are doing what you are doing and how things work perhaps with a scenario that has a little of everything in it. I am assuming you may have some military background based on your forum alias, so let them see for themselves that this is a game that involves actual military strategy. Hopefully this will help you in their conversion.The funny thing is the game (CMBB) seems to be selling EXTREMELY well Despite the Demo scenarios which some folks here suggest did not have the same fun factor or mass appeal as the GREAT CMBO scenarios. (Which IMHO were something special if not almost mystical as they were NEW and the WHOLE concept of CMBO was Ground Breaking and new!) I have found CMBO and CMBB a tough sell with my friends as well oh well 11 thousands registered users here (and many new friends) and I have plenty of PBEM opponents, so who cares let them play Civ 3 all they want. "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make 'em drink!" -tom w 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flammenwerfer Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 CM vs. Ditka 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Originally posted by usmc_grunt: My question.. what suggestion's do you have for getting these very solid player's whom I'm sure will love this game once they've tasted it..interested. How to make the switch from a Civ3 type game to the much more mature CM genre? thanksIt sounds like your friends may enjoy strategy games if they are big on Civ3. Not to mention that Civ3 is more "epic" in its scope of guiding a people from the stone ages to near-futuristic eras. Wars can be part of it all, but so can alliances & diplomacy, economics & trade, exploration, technical evolution, and so forth. The CM system is epic in its own environment, but that environment is far too removed from Civ3's scale. Instead of building a nation, you're fighting to hold a ridge or road junction or town, or just wipe out the opposition. It's straight-up war, thus far more narrow in scope. If your friends like to stick to "big" strategy games, they should consider instead Europa Universalis II, Age of Wonders, Medieval:Total War, Hearts of Iron, and so on. Or if striving for galactic conquest, perhaps Master of Orion III (due late next month) might do the trick. But IF they are willing to try WWII tactical combat as an added theme, then to help them "get into" CMBB, have them play against each other, either TCP/IP or e-mail, on some fast-paced or "mobile" scenarios that aren't too large. Or maybe they might like CMBO instead if they want to play US forces. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriarty Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Are they into chess? Regale them with that special feeling of taking your opponent's King (Tiger) with a pawn (M8 HMC) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenm Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 I'm a total newbie, look at the "I'm Hooked" thread. The first move of the game "setup phase" is totally intimidating to a new player. I've played a lot of RTS games and a lot of the builder games. This game lacks the simple rush technique and the simple build technique found in the start of ALL modern games. Turn based games generally went out a decade or so, thus, are harder for some to stick with. This game is different. The Demo does not do justice to the game. At a minimum any new player needs the advanced tutorial to understand what the game is about. Maybe a redo of the Demo would help. Most games that cost as much as this have much more detailed tutorials, and the games themselves are simpler for a beginner. No ****, this game is intimidating to a newbie. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horus Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 suggestion: bfc should add DANUBE BLUES to the demo´s. i think that could help a lot 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalin's Organ Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 This game is intimidating only because "newbies" are bought up on a diet of relatively similar X^4 games - as Kenm has pointed out those games are all getting a bit predictable!! The difference is that CM is based upon a dataset that ANYONE can check against - it's called history. And it's based at a level that is pretty personal - virtually the level of an individual soldier, within the context of a real military unit. there's little in strategy gaming to prepare "newbies" for this because <big><big>CM is NOT a STRATEGY game!!!!!</big></big> That it keeps being lumped as a strategy game is a sign of how the lowest common denominator has seized the minds of the software industry - where image is everything and content something I guess you have to have as long as you can't get away with having none. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenm Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Thanks for the suggestion. I'll try Danube Blues and let you know. If it involves complex tactics I'm sure to get pixel killed, but will be fun anyway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenm Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Danube Blues is very intimidating on the setup. God, I can't figure out where the front is and using the + command cannot find my units. You're right that a scenario like this should be included in the manual. Any suggestions on how to start something like this? What should an advanced, advanced tutorial tell a newbie for startup? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horus Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 which side you´re playing ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenm Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Was totally bumfuzzled when I set up as Axis, Allies look a lot easier to get a handle on. What side you want to learn me? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horus Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 allies is the easyer way in time i will email you, feel free to do the same . (profile for addy) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JunoReactor Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Another way would be to get them browse this forum once in a while. Some of the discussions here reveal so much of the detail that is otherwise hidden in the game that it is hard not to get excited over the promise of experiencing the 'real thing'. Especially when the alternative is choosing the Romans and start in South America, and find out that there is no way to get historial start locations. Silliest design decision I've seen in decades, that one, especially when one considers it has been around in Civ 1. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc_grunt Posted January 17, 2003 Author Share Posted January 17, 2003 These suggestion's are excellent. Question,I have not tried the demo's personally..which one offer's a tutoral of some type? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciphrix Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 I play both Civ3 and CM, and both are very different, just because they enjoy Civ3 does not mean they will enjoy CM, but they ur friends so u should know. For one thing, CM has a pretty steep learning curve which may weed out the weak minded (not implying ur friends are that, but just that it may prevent them to really getting into the game). The best thing would be to hotseat a game or two and explain to them how the game is played out and assit them in teh basics of the game which can be quite confusing to one whom never played a game such as CM. Or, if they finding CM too confusing and too much information to take in at once, introduce them to Close Combat, which is similar but much easier to master and many aspects are very similar to CM, once they get a hang of that, then CM won't seem as difficult to understand and play. IMO anyway 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 USMC_Grunt, Do this, get them all to your house one day. I will then play you tcp/ip in a scenario. Tell them an ex-Navy flyboy thinks he can outwit the Marine's finest. If that doesn't get their dander up to play, playing tcp/ip will definitely charge them up. Let me know if you want to do this. Rune 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ichadwick Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 I love this game. That being said, the tutorial sucks. I loaned my disk to a friend over one weekend - with the understanding he'd buy the game if he liked it - and he gave it back on the following Monday, saying "I don't get it." First, he tried playing the game without reading the manual through (like most of us do.) Since the manual is awkwardly organized and lacks a proper index, he simply loaded and tried the first game on the list - A Battle of Minors. It's a tough, confusing game for newbies. He didn't like it, didn't understand the hotkeys to change the display so he lost units in the trees, didn't know about views and zoom, etc. etc. So I think it really needs a new "first look" manual & tutorial/newbie game. Something that comes with a splash screen that tells newbies about maybe 4-6 hotkeys and a simplified turn sequence. In a new manual, the tutorial needs to be fleshed out and put in the front. It desperately needs an index. And the first game on the list should be hardwired to be a simple tutorial/newbie intro. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystro Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Interesting thread with a consensus opinion that the game developer (BTS) should consider developing a tutorial. Without question,it would bring more player's of the Civ3 ilk into the fold. Which ask's the question...what CMBB scenario would lend itself to the easiest/best tutorial without being overly complex..something that'll get their feet wet without drowning new players? I'd almost bet BTS would double their sale's with this simple solution. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Pilot Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Originally posted by mystro: Interesting thread with a consensus opinion that the game developer (BTS) should consider developing a tutorial. Without question,it would bring more player's of the Civ3 ilk into the fold. Which ask's the question...what CMBB scenario would lend itself to the easiest/best tutorial without being overly complex..something that'll get their feet wet without drowning new players? I'd almost bet BTS would double their sale's with this simple solution.Why just one scenario? Why not take a programmed instruction approach like Squad Leader did and provide a few simple and short scenarios. Number 1 could be a platoon attacking a machine gun position. Number 2 could be 3 Panthers vs. 3 T-34s. Number 3 could be a slightly more complicated combined arms scenario. But in all cases, I'd make them an easy win so as not to discourage the new folks. Nothing draws a player in like watching your opponents tank explode in flames and being able to say, "I did that!" Ace 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 do what i did. grab beer. grab mate, get a scenario you'd already played where you blew up a lot of the AI's tanks & play it in front of them. pretty soon it's whoever gets out of the others headlock to the mouse first. of course the other gets to point over the shoulder & micro-manage. see how their faces light up when you explain that they can probably download it & play it at home NOW. "oh, your going? ok lat....oh" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 I've got one or two friends who aren't too sure when WWII took place, don't realise there are differences between different type of tanks, and were brought up on 'twitch' games where the first guy to get off the shot wins. These guys are just hopeless. I don't even try to get them into CMBB. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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