Micheal Wittman Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Situation; there's an enemy squad hidden, you have sound contact icon but do not see them. So I area target with my main gun from a Panther(whatever), with also a soft target(enfantry) covering arc that encompasses the hidden unit. When the area fire draws the hidden squad out in the first 10 seconds running, you would figure buddy tank commader would then stop his area target and use his covering arc order to track and shoot the now fleeing enemy squad. But he doesn't,he continues to waste his ammo and time still hitting the now dead area... Any tips to deal with this since it's a somewhat freqant situation.... CheerZ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 The only thing that can override an area target is self preservation. If it is a gun, the tanker may retarget when he has full ID. If it is infantry or an MG, you could try popping the hatch, to make them seem dangerous I suppose. At long range, though, this won't make any difference - the tankers won't consider them a threat. When the range is short you generally already have a full ID. If you don't need HE to panic the target to reveal it, you could just area fire with the MGs - but that is likely to leave you with just a sound contact. One trick there if you have time is to shift the point of aim with MG area fire, from one likely bit of cover to another near the sound contact, and watch for the sound contact to duck. Then use HE on that aim point. Not what you are looking for, but perhaps some of it helps. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Originally posted by JasonC: The only thing that can override an area target is self preservation.I haven't checked to see if it's still true in BB, but in BO it is the case that if you are area firing on a building and the building collapses, the area fire is canceled. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Originally posted by Micheal Wittman: Situation; there's an enemy squad hidden, you have sound contact icon but do not see them. So I area target with my main gun from a Panther(whatever), with also a soft target(enfantry) covering arc that encompasses the hidden unit. ! It sounds like you think that you have been able to order both area fire and a covered arc from the same AFV. Is this what you are saying? I think that this is not possible at all. Either you tell the AFV "fire in this area" OR "shoot any infantry that moves in this arc" but not both... (I completely agree that the behaviour you describe is hard to avoid and not good at all). GaJ. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJK Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Yes! This same thing happened to me in a PBEM, playing CMBB. I was just going to contribute it to the crew experience or something...anyways, my scenario: Friendly T-34 has been fired upon by a tank hunter team in a building who has now retreated back into the building and is out of LOS. I lay area fire to flush the team out. Out they come alright, straight towards the T-34, in plain LOS of the tank crew. Instead of adjusting targets to this obvious threat, they keep popping away at a now empty building. The pzfst team takes out the T-34 just seconds later. Is there not a case of "self-preservation" there? What doofus doesn't say "screw the order to fire at the building, there's an AT team heading straight for us!". No mg fire from the tank either, which really gets me. And yes, there was a covered arc set (non-armor) and the AT team was well within it and got as close as 20 meters to take out the T-34. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dook Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: I haven't checked to see if it's still true in BB, but in BO it is the case that if you are area firing on a building and the building collapses, the area fire is canceled. Michael CMBB has changed the AI behavior in this instance. AFVs continue to area fire at buildings after they collapse - at least until you change the order for the next turn. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappy Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 It will continue to area fire the rubble if there are believed to be survivors in the rubble. If all IDed units exit before collapse, or if they are confirmed killed, the AFV will cease fire. Actually, I find this a pretty good compromise. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JasonC: The only thing that can override an area target is self preservation.I haven't checked to see if it's still true in BB, but in BO it is the case that if you are area firing on a building and the building collapses, the area fire is canceled. Michael </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Originally posted by GreenAsJade: It sounds like you think that you have been able to order both area fire and a covered arc from the same AFV. Is this what you are saying? I think that this is not possible at all. Either you tell the AFV "fire in this area" OR "shoot any infantry that moves in this arc" but not both... (I completely agree that the behaviour you describe is hard to avoid and not good at all). GaJ. It is possible. The covered arc is only cancelled when you area target outside it. Setting the target area first then the covered arc does work. Area targetting inside the covered arc does work. Originally posted by GJK: Yes! This same thing happened to me in a PBEM, playing CMBB. I was just going to contribute it to the crew experience or something...anyways, my scenario: Friendly T-34 has been fired upon by a tank hunter team in a building who has now retreated back into the building and is out of LOS. I lay area fire to flush the team out. Out they come alright, straight towards the T-34, in plain LOS of the tank crew. Instead of adjusting targets to this obvious threat, they keep popping away at a now empty building. The pzfst team takes out the T-34 just seconds later. Is there not a case of "self-preservation" there? What doofus doesn't say "screw the order to fire at the building, there's an AT team heading straight for us!". No mg fire from the tank either, which really gets me. And yes, there was a covered arc set (non-armor) and the AT team was well within it and got as close as 20 meters to take out the T-34. a) The T34 did not spot the TH team - despite the LOS. Crew too busy inside shelling the wrong area. Probably buttoned, as they were fired upon before. The TC spotted them, but the TH team was already in dead ground for his coax MG. His driver did not understand Russian, and the ropes directing him to drive left or right could not deliver thet message to fire the bow MG to the right. BTW: Borg spotting only happens between turns. Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Originally posted by Scarhead: BTW: Borg spotting only happens between turns.Eh? Where and how did you pick up this tidbit? :confused: Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Herr Wittman, I think the solution to your original problem for the time being is to use your tanks in pairs or better. If you have a target that you absolutely feel you must kill (simply getting him to move isn't going to do it for you), give one an area target and the second a CA to nail the target when he flushes from hiding. If you don't have two tanks handy, use one with a CA and give the area fire to an MG or a squad or a mortar. Frankly, I think that's just good, realistic tactics anyway and would be even if the game allowed the kind of behavior you are seeking. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scarhead: BTW: Borg spotting only happens between turns.Eh? Where and how did you pick up this tidbit? :confused: Michael </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micheal Wittman Posted October 22, 2003 Author Share Posted October 22, 2003 Originally posted by Scarhead: It is possible. The covered arc is only cancelled when you area target outside it. Setting the target area first then the covered arc does work. Area targetting inside the covered arc does work. Thanks i'll see if that works. CheerZ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 i'm sorry, is this theory on Borg spotting accurate? ISTM that it's always active. but obviously i've not been playing the game as long. could we have a definative answer? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Originally posted by Scarhead: The covered arc is only cancelled when you area target outside it. Setting the target area first then the covered arc does work. Area targetting inside the covered arc does work. Man! That's amazing! I've always wondered why the MGer couldn't be looking out for infantry while the main gun was shooting. Every day you learn something! GaJ. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Originally posted by GreenAsJade: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scarhead: The covered arc is only cancelled when you area target outside it. Setting the target area first then the covered arc does work. Area targetting inside the covered arc does work. Man! That's amazing! I've always wondered why the MGer couldn't be looking out for infantry while the main gun was shooting. Every day you learn something! GaJ. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Originally posted by Scarhead: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scarhead: BTW: Borg spotting only happens between turns.Eh? Where and how did you pick up this tidbit? :confused: Michael </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJK Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 I wish I had a replay of the action, it just happened last night, interestingly enough, but my T-34 was on a road facing the building and the oncoming TH team, which was also on the road. There was no way that the tank couldn't of seen it. However, the tank was buttoned. I just attributed it to the fact that the crew was just "regular" and that perhaps they had been preoccupied with the area fire order. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Originally posted by GJK: I wish I had a replay of the action, it just happened last night, interestingly enough, but my T-34 was on a road facing the building and the oncoming TH team, which was also on the road. There was no way that the tank couldn't of seen it. However, the tank was buttoned. I just attributed it to the fact that the crew was just "regular" and that perhaps they had been preoccupied with the area fire order. Yeah, could it be that they just didn't have time to react? How far was the tank from the team when they were area firing? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Code13 Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GJK: I wish I had a replay of the action, it just happened last night, interestingly enough, but my T-34 was on a road facing the building and the oncoming TH team, which was also on the road. There was no way that the tank couldn't of seen it. However, the tank was buttoned. I just attributed it to the fact that the crew was just "regular" and that perhaps they had been preoccupied with the area fire order. Yeah, could it be that they just didn't have time to react? How far was the tank from the team when they were area firing? Michael </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJK Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Well, so happens it was a PBEM, so I did have a replay. I'll save the bandwidth here and direct you to HERE. Turns out that I had no cover arc set, was that the problem? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scarhead: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scarhead: BTW: Borg spotting only happens between turns.Eh? Where and how did you pick up this tidbit? :confused: Michael </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Originally posted by GreenAsJade: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GreenAsJade: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scarhead: The covered arc is only cancelled when you area target outside it. Setting the target area first then the covered arc does work. Area targetting inside the covered arc does work. Man! That's amazing! I've always wondered why the MGer couldn't be looking out for infantry while the main gun was shooting. Every day you learn something! GaJ. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Originally posted by GJK: Turns out that I had no cover arc set, was that the problem? Not the answer to the question you mean to ask, but I truly think the problem is that you sent your tank in close to an area where there were known or suspected enemy units and plenty of cover for them to work in even closer and you did it without heavy infantry escort to guard the tank from this kind of close in attack. This is just poor tactics and invites the kind of response you got. In this kind of situation, the best tactic is to call in artillery while your own infantry gets in close. Then, after the arty has lifted, clear the houses etc. with infantry with the tank standing off close enough to support the infantry but not close enough to get shot at with a PF, grenade bundle, etc. Sending a tank into close cover that hasn't been cleared by infantry first is asking for grief. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Gents, getting back to the subject.... I do not consider this a beneficial "feature", nor is it a "bug". It seems to be a mistaken way of programming targeting priorities. (Of course, we'll need to ignore Joachim's lunchtime targeting priorities for this discussion....) If I set a covered arc command, then, within that covered arc I set an area target command, I do that to fire upon a _suspected_ enemy position. When, and if, I flush that enemy from cover, I want to shift my targeting priority off the area target and on to the actual unit. If I set only an area target, then, no matter what else (other than an immediate, direct threat to my unit) I want to continue to fire on that area for the entire turn. If I set only a covered arc, I only want to fire on any enemy unit which may appear within that covered arc. As I've played it, the combination of covered arc and area target does not work well. In fact, it does not work like I'd expect it to, at all. The only work around seems to be to use two units: one to area fire, as the "flusher", the other as the covered arc-er, to fire upon any "flushed" targets. Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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