Cover for AFVs and airstrikes?

[markshot]

Does having your AFV and/or infantry units in scattered trees/woods provide any degree of concealment from airstrikes in the CMBB/CMAK?

Thanks.

[junk2drive]

opposite question

when i played steel panthers i bought gliders or air power to recon over the map. gamey, yes.

does having air strikes work for spotting in cm?

[markshot]

You the player sees everything every ground unit on your side sees, but not air unit. However, when you see your air support shooting at something or dropping bombs in a certain area of the map, it is reasonable to infer that there are some hostiles there.

[junk2drive]

thanks. i was hoping it was that way. so a last seen icon stays that way? usually, the planes drop near my troops, or near enemy units that are too close already, lol. then fire mgs at tanks over and over with no effect.

[markshot]

No, air support will not create any contact markers. If you get a contact marker, than someone on the ground had the contact.

Yes, air support can be quite inaccurrate at times; especially if your troops are on the same vector as the bomb drop.

MG fire against enemy tanks would not be totally useless. It would keep them buttoned and make them less likely to spot another tank, tank destroyer, or anti-tank gun.

[Joachim]

Air works as recon - any gun that opens up might get a sound contact. Tanks with AAMGs give away their position.

This hold especialy in desert scens wehre you can't spot a parked tanks at 1200m. But once it fires tracers in the air you can see it.

Gruß

Joachim

[markshot]

Does anyone know the answer to the original question? Thanks.

[Slappy]

I've done some testing and have an answer to the original question, but it's a bit complicated. If you have armor in trees and in the open, the planes will always attack the armor in the open, even if it has been knocked out (but not burning). If you have armor only in scattered trees, it will attack the armor in the trees.

The air targeting routine is a little strange, it seems to hit easily seen targets first, but will find less obvious targets if there are no slam dunks available pretty easily. Given friendly fire probabilities, it may even attack friendly armor in the open if all of yours is hidden.

The safest strategy is actually to leave all the armor you want to protect in the trees and have a couple of trucks or HTs in the open to draw the easy fire. Hope this helps.

[HarryInk]

I concur with the above. In 'Prelude to a Breakthrough' (of Scenario Depot) I drove PIVs into scattered trees hoping for protection from the Jabos. They attacked some infantry in the open instead - even a HQ squad in a foxhold in the corner of a large 'T' shaped building - in preference to the tanks. Go figure....

[Spears]

Junk2drive, that really depends on the aircrafts weaponry. the 20mm and above are devestating to tanks as i found to my horror in a wide open desert map. I had no AA assets and this p47 i think. Wasted my attack before it began. As you can tell i lost before contact all armour firing up after 1 attack PIV and PIII. Ghastly. In another QB i had a H111 i think dropped 95-5LBS onto a enemy postion, WOW, think i watched it 20 times, what a sight , didn`t hit alot after i spoke to oppent but created a rather large dust cloud which i advanced under. It aimed at a concrete pillbox AT, multiple hits but to no avail, but my men were all over it by the time dust went down. like a really expensive smoke screen

[Macphail]

cool. i havent tried buying air support too much. i bought a stuka attack once i think. can anyone tell me how soon it comes, so i have some idea when to duck and cover, or is it more random.

[Phil_T.]

The turn that the plane arrives on is random, it might not even show up at all. but they fly over the battlefield a turn before they start attacking, you have to listen out for the sound of it flying over the battlefield. When it does arrive you will only have half a turn before it makes its first attack, so you should try and keep your forces close to cover at all times so that when it does show up you can move quickley towards cover.

[With Clusters]

Does it really do much good to try to run for it, at least with vehicles? If you can somehow make it into some scattered trees, does this honestly cut down your chances of getting hit, compared with your chances elsewhere?

Does speed help, as opposed to sitting still? For example, if you're on a road, would you be better off just racing forward (presuming you wont run right into the enemy's guns), or gun it into reverse, rather than trying to make it to some cover?

And besides scattered trees (if they do indeed help), is there any other type of cover that can help by moving into it once you hear the roar of that engine?

[dieseltaylor]

I believe dust works but have not tested it yet - so in the desert - create dustclouds. I have lost several large Italian AA guns to a British fighter in the desert - a great shame as they were for killing Matilda's. My 4 fighter bombers manged to kill one Mattie and one AA gun and shoot up some Bren gun carriers.

Essentially you should always ensure you have some light AA as th consequences of not having it are quite high. If no planes you can content yourself with shooting light armour : )

[Phil_T.]

I always find it is a good thing to move vehicles towards cover other wise they are just sittin ducks out in the open. if you can get to scattered trees it make you more difficult for the aircraft to spot you and make it harder for the plane to get a good shot at you.

Moving is always better than staying still, in any direction. a moving target is always more difficult to hit, especally in a plane, but always move towards cover, and dont stray too far forward. the faster you move the better

As for other terrain any sort off trees and large buildings,(bombs may distory the building though and could damage a tank) anything to block the aircrafts LOS on you and makes it harder for him to hit you.

[Macphail]

In any battles where i know the enemy has had air support, the planes never seemed to attack my tanks, unless his ground troops could see them. in one particulat battle however, some plane straffed my group of trucks lingering in the rear, behind a huge hill, and could not be seen at all. i believe that plane bombed and missed my tanks, and probably wanted to get the higher kill chance for the trucks. it got 3 out of 4 of them. missed the fourth one due to trucks movement (on road).

i rarely buy air support due to its unpredictable nature, but am thinking about including some AA unit now.

recommendations?

[FerretHead]

In a current game I am playing (5,000 points Soviet Assault) my illustrious Sturmoviks didn't show until turn 25 (out of 50). I had held back my armour until turn 20, to reduce any friendly fire oopsies. Once the flying artillery did show, they focussed on a couple of Jagdpanthers my opponent had parked on a hill. Haven't actually damaged them, but kept them buttoned up while my infantry sneaks forwards. Should be thankful they didn't attack my tanks.

Also in the same game, my opponent bought a Sturmtiger in case I bought heaps of infantry (which I did). Cost him over 1,000 points. He tells me it's green crew (couldn't afford anything else, and you don't have to be that accurate with the old Sturm) managed to bog it in a crater on turn 3, and immobilize it on turh 5. On a reverse slope. Behind a forest. Now if only his £$%"$ King Tiger could manage the same!

[FM Paul Heinrik]

I really hate the planes! I try my best to purchase at least 1 AA gun to provide some type of cover.

I never purchase air support anymore because of 2 things. 1) My air support thinks it's funny to bomb and strafe friendly troops. 2) My AA guns won't shoot back at my air support.

I was playing some operation once where I was starting to dominate the battleground when all of a sudden MY air support shows up and starts to demolishing all of my inf. guns and armor. It was the best display of airpower I had ever seen in CM unfortunately, it was all blue on blue strikes.

[junk2drive]

I playtested a battle with full FOW and knew where the enemy forces were located, but could not yet see them. My planes dropped bombs in the area of enemy forces. I still could not see them but I know they were there. So you cannot recon with planes as such, but you can guess by where the bombs and straffing go to.

Meanwhile two large bombs wiped out a full platoon. Wrong side though.

[Carl Puppchen]

One thing to consider w/regards to air support is that if you think your opponent has it, you should spread out your forces. I have had multiple kills when a plane comes over and drops bombs and / or strafes a column advancing in a relatively compact group. This happens to me when I am getting ready for an attack on a reverse slope defense and need to go "over the top" at once coincident with my artillery hitting the enemy.

I wasn't aware of the "trucks" idea - leave them some targets that they can hit - but it sounds like a good idea.

Basically air cover is a random variable - what you can do is have some AA assets on the board just in case (20mm guns are very cheap) and try to keep your assets spread out and under cover to the extent possible. Or you can just hope he attacks the friendlies