Need an explanation for ME's

[nevermind]

In the fairness of sportsmanship,why in a 1000 point ME would the russians get 400+ points for armor,while the germans get 200+ points?This was in October of 1942,and i dont want to hear "thats the way it really was",this is a game.It isnt fun,nor fair to have a StuG IIIF/8 and a Panzer IIIJ,versus three T-34 M43 and one of the KV-1's.Could my armor selection have been better?Maybe.Would it have mattered against such odds?I doubt it.So please,enlighten me as to how this is fair for a GAME .Albeit the best game ive ever played.

Ps,

Yes,this is a whine,and quite frankly,regardless of what you say,this situation isnt fair.A ME,is supposed to be about maneuver,and good tactics.NOT,lets make it realistic so that,as history records it,the german player will lose in most cases.

[ March 13, 2003, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: nevermind ]

[Esper]

ME doesn't mean that things are even point wise across the board.. it just means.. both sides are advancing. Pg 40 in the manual explains it. Probe is explained as both sides nearly equal in Strength. Otherwise you need to adjust it in Handicaps.

[Esper]

oops... I mean if you want the points to be even across the board, you have to choose unrestricted in the force mix and ME.

[nevermind]

Originally posted by Esper:

ME doesn't mean that things are even point wise across the board.. it just means.. both sides are advancing. Pg 40 in the manual explains it. Probe is explained as both sides nearly equal in Strength. Otherwise you need to adjust it in Handicaps.

Thank you,now may i have an explanation for ME's?You gave a definition of ME,which i already knew.Also,a probe is of equal strength,but one is an attacker and the VFL's are closer to the defender.

Now,one more time,in the only venue where both combatants almost have to use maneuver,why the difference in points?

[Sergei]

I suppose you're talking about Combined Arms, right?

This was already in CMBO. The reason was to do with Germans having less tanks than the allies, so they'd have less tanks supporting a C.A. force.

But don't worry, with less of the Panzer you've got more points for Infanterie!!!!

[RSColonel_131st]

Germans had less tanks produced, but better quality. A well placed StuG F late or a StuG G can eat three T-34's. A Tiger can kill anything short of a KV without ever even worrying, and the KV is doable with some risk.

[demoss]

A Tiger can kill anything short of a KV without ever even worrying, and the KV is doable with some risk.

On what planet can a KV earlier than the KV-85 (which, IMO, is a stopgap piece of junk overall) present any risk at all to a Tiger? I guess it could immobilize it, but Tigers can do that to themselves just fine.

I'm not counting the KV-2 because it was withdrawn from service before the Tiger arrives on scene.

[nevermind]

Originally posted by Sergei:

I suppose you're talking about Combined Arms, right?

This was already in CMBO. The reason was to do with Germans having less tanks than the allies, so they'd have less tanks supporting a C.A. force.

But don't worry, with less of the Panzer you've got more points for Infanterie!!!!

Aye,very true,alot more infantry to face T-34's firing not only HE rounds,but a little minor factor that makes it even more uneven in ME's--

C ROUNDS .Its real fun to watch your superior numbers be quickly downsized by a few rounds of those.Even if there is only one surviving T-34 it can easily decide the outcome.

[nevermind]

Originally posted by RSColonel_131st:

Germans had less tanks produced, but better quality. A well placed StuG F late or a StuG G can eat three T-34's. A Tiger can kill anything short of a KV without ever even worrying, and the KV is doable with some risk.

But here in the real world(ok...the CM real world)there isnt always the option of "A well placed StuG F late or a StuG G" in all ME's.If you had read what i posted you would see that a StuG IIIF/8 was what i bought.In addition,you should also have noticed that i said a 1000 point ME,which breaks down to i think 240 points for armor.Show me how you can buy a tiger for that much.

Even though i clearly said i didnt want to hear the crap about "thats the way it was" ,more than one has already said it.Why cant this one battle type be even across the board in points,regardless of what force mix you have it on?It's the only engagement type where neither combatant starts with the VFL's in their posession,and both are forced to use sound tactics to win,not superior numbers,or lack there of.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by nevermind:

Even though i clearly said i didnt want to hear the crap about "thats the way it was" ,more than one has already said it.Why cant this one battle type be even across the board in points,regardless of what force mix you have it on?It's the only engagement type where neither combatant starts with the VFL's in their posession,and both are forced to use sound tactics to win,not superior numbers,or lack there of.

Now, let's get this straight - you're not talking about Meeting Engagement, you're talking about a Combined Arms ME. If you choose Armour, Pure Armour or Unrestricted ME, then you can buy all the Panzer you ever wanted. And with Infantry, you get none. You can use any of those in a ME battle, and both get the same point distribution. CA is a different thing.

I do acknowledge your argument about the lack of possibility to play with "equal" combined arms forces. But even so, the differences in armies and their weaponry means that you won't get a totally fair game in any case unless you also have a rematch with sides switched. And as far as I remember, this feature was originally implemented because of all the complains about German tank's superiority. Nobody knows when the whining started, but it hell sure ain't gonna stop...

[Esper]

Originally posted by nevermind:

Even though i clearly said i didnt want to hear the crap about "thats the way it was" ,more than one has already said it.Why cant this one battle type be even across the board in points,regardless of what force mix you have it on?It's the only engagement type where neither combatant starts with the VFL's in their posession,and both are forced to use sound tactics to win,not superior numbers,or lack there of.

Because the game was made with Historic events and timeline in place. Sorry if you don't want to hear it but thats the way they made it. If you want it to be "even" then you need to change the force mix to unrestricted, and ME. I don't understand why it's that big of a deal? It gives you what you want, both sides starting with same number of points in each catagory..

[ March 13, 2003, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Esper ]

[nevermind]

Yes im talking about CA's.So,let me get this straight,you say that,since the german player has the mighty StuG,it is ok to let the rusian player have a 3 to 1 advantage?A StuG IS NOT supposed to be used in an offenseive role,so then what other choices does the german player have with the points allowed?Well you could get a panzer IV for around 150 points(averaged out amongst all the IV's).It atleast can be considered an offensive tank.It is however equal to the T-34 M43 IMO.Then after spending around 150 points,what is left?Hmmm,not a whole heck of alot else,i could get a StuG III B,E,or F.But again,if used in its somewhat proper role(yes i know it truly wasnt meant for AT purposes),it would be sitting hull down with a nice over look duty,while your lone panzer IV fights it out with three T-34's and one of the KV-1's.

So,if you could kindly point out where the german AFV superiority is,i would apreciate it.

Again to summarize:

Russian=4 offensive tanks of atleast above average quality.

German=1 offensive tank,and 1 defensive tank(without a turret mind you)that wasnt even initally meant for AT purposes.

[WWB]

Note also, for the germans, that they get alot of points in the Mechanized category in CA engagements. Because they had things that could reach out and touch someone in that category. You dont need tanks doing infantry support when you have 75mm toting HTs.

If you want even across the board, play unrestricted. That is what it is there for.

WWB

[JonS]

Originally posted by nevermind:

German= ... 1 defensive tank(without a turret mind you)that wasnt even initally meant for AT purposes.

Actually, the F/8 was meant for AT work - that's why it has the long barrel 75mm.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by nevermind:

So,if you could kindly point out where the german AFV superiority is,i would apreciate it.

Geez... You're stubborn, aren't ya. If you want to play with tanks, then play with armour, not with combined arms. With Combined Arms, you are supposed to have a infantry force supported by a mechanized force, or vice versa. Now, where's your other troops? Where are your infantry, your PAK's, your armoured cars and your artillery support? It's not like you are expected to buy just 200 points worth of tanks, you still have the 800 points left for other troops.

And no, while it has been claimed that this is to do with German better tank quality, this performance is reflected in the already higher prices you pay for Übercats.

[Thin Red Line]

That's the way it was.

[Andrew H.]

Geez, do a search.

The real reason is because the Germans have lots of mechanized "vehicles" with tank-like qualities, such as the Puma and other 75mm armed HTs. The russians only have lightly armed "vehicles," and after 42 or 43, all of their vehicles were armed with MGs.

So BFC felt it would be unfair to give the Germans equal points in tanks *plus* 200 or so other odd points that they could use for vehicles with substantial anti-tank and anti-infantry combat. (The same was true in CMBO, although the US at least had the greyhound).

As it turns out, though, this rule does make CA games have a more historical mix of vehicles - but the main reason it was done was for fairness.

But if you just want tanks, use pure armor.

[nevermind]

Originally posted by Thin Red Line:

That's the way it was.

Smart ass.

[JasonC]

Um, your problem is you are giving the Russian side a "mechanized" division type. That gives an armor heavy formation, with 44% armor points. Just give the Russian side an "infantry" parent division, leaving the force mix "combined arms". The Russians get around 250 points for tanks, and will have a pair of decent AFVs. They only get 4 if you purposefully choose to represent a fight against one of the Russian mechanized or tank corps formations.

As for what to buy with 240 points of armor on the German side, obviously it varies somewhat with date and rarity roll. But typically in 1942 you can take a pair of long 50 Pz IIIs (late J or L), or a pair of StuG (take one green if necessary), or one Pz IV long and one Pz III short. In 1943, you can take a pair of StuG, or one green Tiger, or 3 Marders, or a Pz IV and a Marder. Generally the thicker (70mm to 80mm front) AFVs will work best.

You can add a few armored cars or 75mm halftracks if you want. Don't get a whole platoon, mix them or take more infantry instead. 20mm ACs are fine against light armor but not very useful against other stuff - 1-2 are probably all you need. The 30mm front "late" versions are worth it.

The larger SPW versions of gun HTs have significantly more ammo, usually worth it. The 75mm gun versions are the best. Don't invest too much in them, as even ATRs can KO them. Bring them out relatively late to help your infantry.