Cement gun emplacements

[PatAWilson]

Apologies if this has been goneover before, I did do a search but came up empty handed. Anyway ...

How does one take these suckers out? They are certainly vulnerable to infantry, especially engineers if you can get them close enough, but is there a reasonable way to take them out at range? I had one positive experience with a 20mm gun. Any other tips are appreciated.

[flamingknives]

Pillboxes?

Autocannon, going for firing slit penetrations

122mm long-barreled guns definately work. Presumably 100mm, 152mm, 88L71 and 128mm guns should work too.

[Scheer]

Any cheap 20 mm will do.

[Andrew Kulin]

Play against me. Crews armed with pistols should then be sufficient. :mad:

[arax3]

Pat: A tank gun firing at the slit will usually work. Put some smoke in front of it and get it with an assault. A3

[Pyewacket]

In CMBB I KO (forced the crew to abandon) a pillbox with 2 HMGs from a disatnce below 200 m. So this works too, but is risky if the gun fires HE in time..

[PatAWilson]

I should have been a bit more specific: it's the cement bunkers with cannons that are causing me pain and suffering. In the last game I did get in tight and kill them with infantry. My problem was that they effectively eliminated my tanks as useful contributors. The problem with a tank gun firing at the slit is that the slit fires back .

OK, sounds like I'll have to make sure that I bring along some small calibre cannons for future games. In the meantime I'll try to keep my tanks out of view and move in with the infantry. Onward for the Motherland!

[Bone_Vulture]

Ok, so let's summarize. Best ways of defeating a bunker:

1) Low-caliber, high-ROF field guns.

2) Lots of smoke. Since the bunker is 100% immobile, limiting its field of vision can do miracles.

[Cannon-fodder]

Erm, stay out of it's LOS and take it in the back? Not possible every time I know, but you should think of it as your first choice. Remember, Pillboxes can't move/rotate, so if you stay out of its LOS, it's just a bunch of wasted points.

[SpitfireXI]

I know 20mm cannons are great but how is it supposed to fire at it if the pillbox can fire back?

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by SpitfireXI:

I know 20mm cannons are great but how is it supposed to fire at it if the pillbox can fire back?

Simple. You set your gun in deep concealment, and start firing away. Usually you'll rake firing slit penetrations before your gun is even spotted.

[Denwad]

Originally posted by Cannon-fodder:

so if you stay out of its LOS, it's just a bunch of wasted points.

if only...

going around it might entail driving into other obstacles the opponent has placed, mines, hidden AT guns, tank hunter teams etc.

[Bannon DC]

I sometimes have a harder time taking out a 45mm AT gun in the woods than I do taking out a bunker.

If you have multiple tanks, hit it similtaneously. You may loose a tank or two, but you should get it.

Smoke it. Get your tanks in better firing positions while it is blind.

Probe for blind spots. Sometimes you can get "underneath" the gun. A "hull down" gun can't fire... kind of like your tank's machine gun is blocked when it is hull down.

The old rope-a-dope. Offer a target on one side of the map, move forward just enough to be seen and reverse. Draws the guns attention. Then do the same on the other side of the map. This may give you a few more seconds to get an accurate shot.

Use your less experienced tanks as bait while a veteran tank sits and fires.

If the terrain is right, you can get "inside" its line of sight (effectively out of the range of the gun to traverse). Speed and offering the gun multiple targets similtaneuously will help.

Obviously, an 88 in a pillbox should be treated with great respect. A 75, you can take on directly at range.

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by Bannon DC:

Obviously, an 88 in a pillbox should be treated with great respect. A 75, you can take on directly at range.

At what range?

[SpitfireXI]

This brings up a good point about taking out AT guns. I agree that one way of taking them out is massing your tanks to take it out. You will probably lose a tank or two but is this an acceptable loss? AT guns are dirt cheap compared to tanks so this loss is advantageous to the defender. So how did the allies or any army win a battle against loads of AT guns? Even if the attacking force wins the battle how can they win the war when the defender is trading AT guns for tanks, the defender would win the overall war it seems. I do use motars but even that is really difficult, the spotters are seen immediately and fired on or just trying to move them into position to spot is really risky against a half decent enemy. I guess what my question boils down to is that I often find my whole attack stops once an AT guns is spotted just taking this one gun out takes a really long time, is this accurate or am I doing something fundamentally wrong?

[stikkypixie]

If you can get close enough satchel packs and flame throwers can do wonders...well if you're still alive by then.

[dieseltaylor]

Spitfire you are doing something wrong!

In CMAK I took out 10 of 11 guns, ranging from 105mm to flak with British 3" on board mortars. Basically you send forward squads or sharpshooters /ATR men and get them to spot where the ATG or HE fire is coming from. I had three groups of three, within 3000 points, which was a little too many but by cripes it sorted out his guns.

Remember also that if you do area fire whilst of direct shot of his ATG you will eventually take it out anyway. How fast being a fuction of luck and size of shell : )

I forgot , you put your mortar packs in command of a good officer who views the target from cover and keep your mortars in command range and out of line of fire. Easy : ) Practice, practice...

[SpitfireXI]

But by placing my HQ in a position to spot they get fired upon. It's a catch 22 when I try this out. Most defenders place infantry around the gun to do exactly this. This is especially true in the desert where the spotter has to top a hill in order to see the gun or in a heavily forested area where the ranges are very close.

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by SpitfireXI:

But by placing my HQ in a position to spot they get fired upon. It's a catch 22 when I try this out. Most defenders place infantry around the gun to do exactly this. This is especially true in the desert where the spotter has to top a hill in order to see the gun or in a heavily forested area where the ranges are very close.

Bah, the real catch-22 is that if a gun cannot be spotted and bombarded by field mortars from afar, it doesn't have a fire arc that'd jeopardize your approaching troops. :cool:

[SpitfireXI]

That is true, but the gun might me targeting other troops(or tanks) who do not have access to motars. I then have to move the HQ into a position to get fired upon while spotting, a hard thing to ask of your troops.

[Bone_Vulture]

... And that's why you should view the map from your opponent's point of view during setup. Very few players set their guns in random locations; usually they seek good vantage points, more senior players also check for potential keyhole locations.

When attacking, you should always keep the mortars following the troops that are most likely to suffer from incoming field gun fire. Depending on your previous conflicts with the opponent, the force mix, match type and the total amount of points, you should have a rough picture on what your opponent is likely to purchase. Dirt cheap infantry guns? AT guns? Massive 150mm groundbreakers?

From earlier experience I can say that you should always have a supporting medium mortar per 2-2,5 infantry platoons in order to thwart field gun threats.

[dieseltaylor]

Spotting HQ units if they sneak into a viewing position is not a gimme. Remeber if you have other troops ahead of him they will spot - all he has to do is be in line of sight of the target and in command of the mortars to order firing.

[SpitfireXI]

Thanks for the help, it should really help me improve my game. Is their a scenario where the attacking tank force has to battle through loads of at guns? I tried playing 'The Seam' on the disc and realized how hard it really is. Any other battles I could try and practice this kind of tactic?

[Renaud]

get practice vs AT guns by in a QB where you purchase the AI forces, then let the AI set it up automatically.

Onboard mortars are the ticket for taking out guns. Don't send your tanks out, send out the infantry screen to force them to fire...but then of course he has his MG's and infantry screen to deter you from finding his guns until you start to run out of time and must run your tanks forward without proper recce...and so it goes.

Personally I like to have a big base of fire which blasts opposition as it is forced to uncover by my advancing recon screen. If all goes well I move up graves registration to do the clean up!

I've found mortars are useful at night in the attack as well, if you've got some decent night visibility. A leader with command radius bonus follows 30-60 meters behind the front of the advance, with 2-3 mortars behind him at the edge of his command radius. As the screen reveals enemy targets, everyone stops (move to contact) and the mortar-leader directs the mortars onto strongpoints one or 2 at a time. Ideally the mortars are totally out of sight in the darkness, while the mortar-leader is just barely in sight of the enemy strongpoint and the forward screen is taking all the fire. This is pretty effective at causing defenders to run almost right way, especially at night when morale is shaky.

The best mortar hands down is the british 3", followed by russian 82mm (more ammo than 81mm). The russian 50mm mortar is excellent due to it's large ammo supply. The US 60mm is decent. US and German 81mm are not my preference due to low ammo load. The british 2" and german 50mm are useful en masse but have only about 1 minute of ammo which seriously impairs their usefulness.

[George MC]

Originally posted by SpitfireXI:

Thanks for the help, it should really help me improve my game. Is their a scenario where the attacking tank force has to battle through loads of at guns? I tried playing 'The Seam' on the disc and realized how hard it really is. Any other battles I could try and practice this kind of tactic?

I've one sitting over at the Scenario Depot called TBP No1 - attack Against PAK, its based on a tactical problem from a panzer training manual. basically you have a unit of panzers, no infantry support, and you have to fight your way through the PAKs. Short but sweet.

Cheers fur noo

George Mc