Lt. Stahler Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Living in Africa on the fringes of humanity means we only discover things long after they have become popular elsewhere. I have only just acquired both CMBO and CMBB and am smitten. This is what we have been waiting for since the early days of Avlon Hill's Panzer Leader in the 70s. My ASL will never be taken down off the shelf again. One question for the grognards, please! I have looked through the info for newbies but I seem to have not found the answer to this particular question. In all wargames I have played to date there is a movement benefit to be had by staying on a road. Unless I am missing something this does not seem to be the case in Combat Mission. If I give a sequential number of "move" orders to negotiate a series of bends on a road, it seems to take longer to respond to those orders than if I just order a move directly across open ground, cutting off the corners and bypassing the road. So is there really any advantage to be gained by trying to stay on a road as opposed to just moving across open ground? Any comments. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave H Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Originally posted by Lt. Stahler: Living in Africa on the fringes of humanity means we only discover things long after they have become popular elsewhere. I have only just acquired both CMBO and CMBB and am smitten. This is what we have been waiting for since the early days of Avlon Hill's Panzer Leader in the 70s. My ASL will never be taken down off the shelf again. One question for the grognards, please! I have looked through the info for newbies but I seem to have not found the answer to this particular question. In all wargames I have played to date there is a movement benefit to be had by staying on a road. Unless I am missing something this does not seem to be the case in Combat Mission. If I give a sequential number of "move" orders to negotiate a series of bends on a road, it seems to take longer to respond to those orders than if I just order a move directly across open ground, cutting off the corners and bypassing the road. So is there really any advantage to be gained by trying to stay on a road as opposed to just moving across open ground? Any comments. Another convert. Welcome to the insanity. You'll find this forum to be full of great, helpful people. The Peng thread is, of course, a completely different story, but you'll have to find that out for yourself. A few months ago I would have said the advantage of roads was reducing your chance of bogging in the open ground. However, since then I have had several tanks bog in the middle of the road, while tanks a few meters to either side rolled merrily through open ground and scattered trees. I know roads make a big difference for trucks, though. Maybe that's really where the benefit comes, for wheeled vehicles and maybe halftracks, as opposed to fully tracked AFVs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Vehicles are better able to reach their max speed on a road. They also will not bog unless there are extreem weather conditions. One of the limitations of the order system is that every waypoint causes a delay. While this is fine when you consider an order like, "move to that tree, turn east for 200 meters then look for some low ground behind that hill" it is rather unnecessary for a command like "follow this road till you get to that hill over there." Look at the info display for your units, especially wheeled and you will see a cross country rating. This really comes into effect when off road. Try racing two trucks to the same point over a fair distance. While the one with a straight path will start moving faster the one on the road will quickly leave it in the dust. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abbott Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Hello and welcome Lt. Yes, there is a movement bonus to road travel. Vehicles will reach higher speeds on roads. It is not instantaneous; some take a bit to achieve this speed. Also in CMBB the more commands (way points) you set the longer the delay to responding to your movement orders. However cutting corners on twisting roads may offer the same end result as plotting all the way points depending on number of turns verse distance traveled. Tracked vehicles take a few seconds to traverse thus reducing speed. With a few careful tests I am certain you will notice the difference in road movement compared to movement over other terrain types. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Only if the road is straight. And for wheeled vehicles in particular, as opposed to tracked. They also help in mud. And help more on longer moves than on shorter ones. You speed up if you use "fast" as the move order, over time. Turns slow you down again. So you usually get someplace faster by using a straight line method and fast move. If in addition that straight line is along a road, you will get up to significantly higher speeds. The issue with wheeled vehicles is that they are significantly slower off road. It is especially noteworthy when the ground is poor i.e. muddy, and with trucks or armored cars. Only jeeps seem to have good off road ability - and they positively zip if they have a straight road. E.g. In the rain, trucks off road can be slower than men on foot, and will also bog. On a road they are faster. Armored cars are about as fast as tanks when off roads, but on them (with any time to build up speed) they are extremely quick. If you have a road with tons of bends in it, it makes little sense to conform to each bend. Get to a straight stretch and then give a single waypoint for that stretch. Designers ought to make roads go straight, but often don't recognize the problem. Quick maps sometimes do and sometimes don't yield straight roads. Extra waypoints also increase command delay before you move out, though not by much if the vehicle has a radio and is decent crew quality. A buttoned green radioless tank, on the other hand, will add several minutes if you give it 5-7 waypoints. Those more or less have to keep it extremely simple. It can make sense to keep your heaviest tanks on roads in poor ground conditions, at least in areas of the map outside enemy set up zones. The reason is to minimize bog chances. Losing a Tiger to mud, particularly before you ever get any use out of it or in a spot where it can't see anything, really hurts. (Why "areas outside enemy set up zones?" Because it is only marginally less annoying to lose a Tiger to AT mines). [ August 06, 2003, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: JasonC ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 One thing about roads in CMBB is they're Russian roads... in the early 40s... often during the rainy season. You get an AC on a straight dry road and that bugger will just FLY (especially compared to trying to drive it through brush and scattered trees)! Put a heavy tank on a deep mud road while its raining and you're likely to soon hear a 'squish' sound and see the thing sink up to its belly in mud. Plus for most vehicles "move" on pretty well any surface is just about the same speed. You'll need 'Fast' to get it going... well... fast. So its not that CMBB doesn't factor in roads, its that they take into account that they're Russian roads! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Even the AI uses roads for Soviet tanks in wet ground conditions, so they must have some use. Of course I had placed only two minefields on roads and spread the others to gullies which were totally avoided by the AI sticking to roads or higher ground :mad: But those 2 minefields immo'd a KV, a T34, a T70 and a T60 - that KV would've ruined my day. Given that 3 tanks got immo'd on one single minefield, I guess the AI feared bogging as much as driving on a minefield. Which in turn would hint that the designers who created the AI thought roads have some use. Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenfedoroff Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Originally posted by Lt. Stahler: ...If I give a sequential number of "move" orders to negotiate a series of bends on a road, it seems to take longer to respond to those orders than if I just order a move directly across open ground, cutting off the corners and bypassing the road. You have come across a weakness of the current game engine, which is the lack of a "follow road" order for vehicles. One way around this in scenarios is to make all (non-weaponed vehicles) the trucks, jeeps, etc., "Elite" status. This cuts down on the order delay and more closely simulates the real world ability of "convoy" movement. The current game engine also lacks a command control for maintaing spacing in a truck convoy, so that your orders can result in a bumper-car match. So is there really any advantage to be gained by trying to stay on a road as opposed to just moving across open ground? As mentioned by others, above, this will depend on ground conditions. If you fight nothing but "pretty" battles, where the weather and ground conditions are nothing but beautiful summer days and wide open (dry) spaces, roads have less of a value. However, as soon as the ground conditions move to "wet", roads become very important (still depending on the cross-country ability of your vehicles of course). ...Which reminds me of a quote by one of our members... "Combat Mission ... all the frustration of golf, but, without the exercise". Welcome to the club, Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THumpre Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 A workaround for the orders delay issue is to plot orders in a turn that will not be finished in that minute of action. Then you can plot all the extra waypoints you want without any extra delay. It is a kind of an exploitation of the game system( therefore IMHO, gamey) but it does solve that problem. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauCoupDinkyDau Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 "Welcome to the party pal!" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcm1947 Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Yes welcome to the game and this forum. You lucky dog you. You are in for a treat of your life. This game is awesome. Anyway, glad you found it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86smopuim Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Lt Stahler Hahaha, nice name. I use that alot too. ASL 9 -2 leader if I recall 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Originally posted by THumpre: A workaround for the orders delay issue is to plot orders in a turn that will not be finished in that minute of action. Then you can plot all the extra waypoints you want without any extra delay. It is a kind of an exploitation of the game system( therefore IMHO, gamey) but it does solve that problem. I'd like to know how you get away with that. When I try it, my units stop at the end of the old orders and pause the usual amount of time for the number of new waypoints before moving on. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THumpre Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 I'll check when i get home but I don't think they do...could be wong though, it has been known to happen [ August 06, 2003, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: THumpre ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Hint: the extra delay does not show up in the information window at the bottom of the screen. If that's all you were checking, I can see very well where you might have got the idea that there is no additional delay. But if you watch the unit over the next turn, I believe you will see it stop and pause. Anyway, it'll be interesting to see what you find out. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRSutton Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Not Jim Stahler is it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zukkov Posted August 7, 2003 Share Posted August 7, 2003 roads? we don't need no stinkin' roads! welcome to the game! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auggy Posted August 7, 2003 Share Posted August 7, 2003 Do roads improve infantry speed and whatnot? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted August 7, 2003 Share Posted August 7, 2003 Originally posted by Sir Augustus: Do roads improve infantry speed and whatnot? Yes - but it increases the speed with which they travel to the pit, too :mad: Gruß aochim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted August 7, 2003 Share Posted August 7, 2003 Originally posted by Scarhead: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sir Augustus: Do roads improve infantry speed and whatnot? Yes...</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THumpre Posted August 7, 2003 Share Posted August 7, 2003 I stand corrected and abashed :eek: Michael, I did several tests and found that you are indeed correct, the delay is still there, you just can't see it. This actually makes me happy since I always thought that this was too easy a workaround. I hang my head in shame( sort of) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted August 7, 2003 Share Posted August 7, 2003 Actually, I had kind of hoped maybe you had discovered a new trick I had missed. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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