Haplo_Patryn Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 Hi all. I'm newbie in this forum but i've been playing CMBB since the firt day this great game was released in Spain. I've got CMBO too, so i can tell: "hei, i know what i'm talking about!" Now, let's go to my question: Some guys here, in Spain, are playing a CMBB league by PBEM and we have problems when we try to detect AT mines (no problem with Daisy Chain mines). Some of us can detect AT mines easily (for example: moving our infantry or our scout vehicles near them) but others cannot find out any way to detect AT mines whatever they do. These guys have tried everything: they moved infantry squads near the AT mines, hold their positions near the mines a lot of turns, but nothing happened, nevermind what were the experience of their squads (veteran, newbie, crack). Pioneers or engineers don't do nothing to solve it neither, the AT mines remain undiscovered. A nasty problem. However, Daisy Chain mines don't mean any problem for us. They are easier to detect and it's ok. All of us use 1.03 patch, european version, so we are very interested in all the information you guys can give us about this problem in order to find some clear answer. What are the conditions to detect and AT mine (time conditions, squad conditions, terrain conditions etc)?. Are there any previous conditions or is merely a question of luck?. Is a question of probability or what?. Why some of us can detect them easily and others cannot whatever they do?. What happens here?. :confused: Thank you boys and sorry if i've made spelling mistakes in this post, i write the better i can 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_the_wino Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 Hola Haplo_Patryn. Bienvenido, senor. Pardon my poor Spanish....and my even less adequate English. The difference in detection is due to the difference in construction. Daisy chain mines are built in a hurry and are easily seen. AT mines (not Daisy-chain) are buried in the ground and can't be seen. This means infantry can not see them no matter how long they are near the mines. At least this is my understanding. I imagine someone will come along and give you better insight. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 Indeed, the behavior of your units is realistic. The mines are detected normally when the first vehicle is blown up hehehe. I have seen sometimes AT mines are detected before a vehicle was blown up yes, but very rarely and i dont know why that happened ! So dont expect units to detect AT mines ! I think pioneer units could detect them, but NOT in a battle - period which CM handles. Move the pioneer units near the AT mines when they are detected, and they will throw satchel charges to the mines , which destroy them. AT mines in CM are nasty, but realistic. HINT: Nasty players use this method: they place a road block on a road, and AT mines on both sides hehehehe, also some scattered anti personel mines to hold the inf. attack. Especially with bad weather conditions when tanks need to stay on roads, this can be devastating ! Monty [ September 05, 2003, 04:44 AM: Message edited by: Monty ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 Detectability of mines seems to be highly variable even aside from the difference between daisy chains and implanted mines. In CMBO I sometimes spotted minefields (both AT and AP) from a couple hundred meters away, other times not until one of my units ran over one. In BB they seem to be harder to spot. In a game I was playing a couple of nights ago, I had both troops on foot and tanks pass right beside a couple AT fields without spotting them. All troops were veteran. Fortuitously, I didn't run over any of them! Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haplo_Patryn Posted September 5, 2003 Author Share Posted September 5, 2003 Thank you all ( mike_the_wino, your spanish is good, you have written that spanish sentence perfectly ). However, i continue without a clear answer (don't blame me, please!!! ). I will try to explain my problem better... Some of us CAN detect easily AT mines (no Daisy Chain mines, these are easier to detect, no problem with them). For example, i played the meeting engagement of Operation Sforfang last week and one of my scout cars detected an AT mine buried in the middle of the road. It was placed 50-75 meters away from my vehicle. My vehicle saw it from a distance of 50-75 meters! :eek: Now.....some guys cannot dectect them NEVER. They move pioneers or whatever you can imagine near an AT mine but despite of this, they cannot detect it. Why my vehicle was able to detect it from a distance of 50-75 meters and my friends cannot detect it NEVER?. I'm playing Operation Sforfang by PBEM with three different spanish friends and i play germans always. In all of three games i was able to detect the AT mines (i'm sure at 100% that are AT mines, no Daisy Chain). So this is not luck, must be some explanation :confused: Why?. Is merely a question of luck?. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 just to eliminate it being a bug or configuration issue, can you send the turn where you discovered the mines to your friend who never discovers them and have him run it with your password? i am almost sure this will not change anything but it will level the playing field for further discussion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 I think I've always detected AT mines by running over them... :mad: Something I'd like to see (for CMX2?) would be variable concealment for mines and other fortifications. Conscripts would not do as good a job of properly placing and camoflauging them as Veterans and above, making them easier to spot. The quality of emplacement could be figured using the average quality of the defending forces. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabron66 Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 Oye, que ondas hermano? Soy mitad mexicano pero en una epoca de mi vida vivi en Salamanca y en Granada. Espana me encanto y sigo con la esperanza de regresar un dia pa' visitar si no para enamorarme de una morenita de Andalucia. Esas chavitas del sur han de ser las mas bonitas del mundo. Bueno, te mando saludos de Mexico. Cuidate. I did some testing today and could not find any good explanation for the phenomena you describe. The only thing I did discover, and I feel silly even saying it, is that unbuttoned tanks were much better at spotting minefields than buttoned ones and that, for some reason, a veteran Pz IVE was excellent at spotting mines. I didn't bother to do any testing with CMBO because it is so easy to spot mines in that game. What I think I will try to do is look at the effects of terrain on spotting. I'm not sure, but I think this has something to do with it. I ran a company of veteran troops past two antipersonnel mine fields in the woods and they didn't see anything. Later I tried with Pioneers and they too failed to find the mines. I tested with a bunch of different kinds of infantry and they all seemed incapable. However, I then placed the mines in scattered trees and some infantry managed to see the minefields (at very close range). Later I put them in brush and nobody saw anything. As you can imagine this was a little frustrating. There must be a reason for this happening and I will attempt to find it. Anybody ever done any testing on this? Any ideas? I need a lead (pista)or two. Chau [ September 07, 2003, 01:48 AM: Message edited by: Cabron66 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 Originally posted by Cabron66: I ran a company of veteran troops past two antipersonnel mine fields in the woods and they didn't see anything. Later I tried with Pioneers and they too failed to find the mines. I tested with a bunch of different kinds of infantry and they all seemed incapable. However, I then placed the mines in scattered trees and some infantry managed to see the minefields (at very close range). Later I put them in brush and nobody saw anything.This is not at all surprising. Would you consider running the same tests in other types of terrain, open and steppe especially? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabpub Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 Personally, I believe it is a combination of not only the quality of the unit, but also the speed of movement. The slower that you are going, the more "opportunity" that you have to spot the field. Try taking infanty and sneaking them up to a field, or a vehicle on move, rather than fast or hunt. Unbuttoned would also be an obvious requirement, as I would be surprised if a buttoned tank could see anything like a minefield. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 Number of men in the unit might possibly have something to do with it too. I related in another thread where in CMBO I had an HQ crawl through a minefield without setting off any of the mines or spotting them either. The next turn a normal inf unit walked past the field and spotted it immediately. I suspect a large random variable in here somewhere too. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabron66 Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 Just finished a whole whack of testing and have succeeded in discovering nothing earth-shattering. As far as terrain goes, I tried most of them (starting with open ground and going through a "density" scale). This time I couldn't get anyone to find a minefield without stepping in it first. I think I must have made a mistake in my original tests and spotted a daisychain. This time I did the testing in a much more organized manner. Everyone sees daisychains at about 100m (or less depending on the terrain and line of sight) except for buttoned AFVs which see nothing. Speed of movement made no difference (including sneak) and neither did troop quality, nationality or type. Elite troops acted the same as conscripts when it came to minefields. The only difference I found was in the troops ability to cross an AP minefield without setting it off. Pioneer squads "appeared" to be able to sneak back and forth across mines far more than other troops (which is a strange phenomena considering they don't know the mines are there any more than other squads). Command units are equally ineffective even when elite with the highest possible bonuses. Tanks, light armour and vehicles are all the same as far as minefields are concerned. They can spot daisychains when unbuttoned, but that's about it. After even trying to use explosives, heavy guns and artillery to reveal the mines (which I admit was grasping at straws ) I gave up and decided that it was impossible. Haplo, I think you are spotting daisychains and confusing them with AT or AP mines. Either that or you are spotting minefields set off by enemy units which you do not see (which does happen according to another post). I will try a few more ideas, but I don't think it's possible to spot minefields without going through them (at least not in CMBB). The next time it happens stop the scenario and check the map for nearby enemy units. The AI will sometimes stumble on its own mines. If this is not what's happening then I am at a loss to explain what you are experiencing. Lo siento amigo. Hice lo maximo pero nada. No se que decirte. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brightblade Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 "Note: Dug in mines are never spotted unless one actually explodes!" from the Manual, p. 63 (US version) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 Cabron, thanks for running the test. At least we now have a data point or two. Brightblade, you cheat! Really, reading the manual! Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brightblade Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 Brightblade, you cheat! Really, reading the manual! I feel ashamed yet... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 You incorrigible manual reader you. I'll bet you're even worse than I am. That's sinking pretty low. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nothing fancy, just Steve Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 Sorry, but I believe even the manual is wrong on this one. I play a lot of head-to-head games against myself to see how certain things work. I was playing an Axis night attack, maximum visibility of approximately 198 meters, with mud. As the Soviets, I purchased AT and AP mines, no Daisy Chains. During the game, as the Germans, before my soldiers stumbled into the minefields, several of the fields were spotted, one as far out as over 150 meters. None of the Germans triggered the mines, and as the soviets, none of my guys had moved and could not have triggered them. From everything I've seen it is completely random. Additionally, my Germans were running when they spotted the mines. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabron66 Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 Is there a way to save games and get them into the scenario editor to have a look at the map? I just played a scenario in which my guys spotted some mines but I had no way to check which ones they were. This is against the AI, by the way. I couldn't find anything else in a few more tests. Steve, can you do me a favour and note the conditions under which you spotted those mines, which map, and which units were in a position to do the spotting? Or at least some clue to go on. The manual? A tome containing useful instructions? Such a thing exists. Are you guys having me on? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 First its reading manuals then what? International communism? Regional Cannibalism? No good can come from this? On mines I've had mine detected prior to being run over, from both sides. Infantry, especially engineers/pioneers will detect them. One reason I tend to put them on reverse slopes now days. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabron66 Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 Like I said, I tried a bunch of stuff and couldn't find anything except a daisychain (sounds like a late 60's Grateful Dead tune). Its a mystery to me how you guys are doing it. I tried every type of infantry in CMBB and in no test did one of them find a minefield before stepping on it. Weird, eh? Spooky even. :confused: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 Like I said, a large random variable. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haplo_Patryn Posted September 8, 2003 Author Share Posted September 8, 2003 Cabron66, thank you for trying to find out what's going on with AT mines! And thank all the rest for your help, too!. You're great!. Cabron66 i suppose you know what's the meaning of your nickname in spanish.... When i have free time i will post a screenshot here that shows how my scout car detects and AT mine buried 50-75 far away of my vehicle, in the middle of the road, and it's a AT mine, no a Daisy Chain :confused: Well, my friends have been doing some testing about this "File X" and all what you have explained here happens with us. No matter what orders you give to your infantry squads (sneak, move to contact, move etc....) when you are trying to detect a AT mine. It remains undetected. So, why sometimes we cannot detect it and sometimes can?. And why a scout car?. Why not a infantry squad which is more realistic?. I think luck is playing here an important rol....maybe there is great random variable as well...but i think the manual is wrong because I've detected an AT mine (sure at 100%)so... I'll post the screenshot this night and then we coul talk about this issue with more detail Bye! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabron66 Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Haplo I know it doesn't mean the same thing in Spain as in Mexico. It's sort of a special word for us. Similar to how the word "shag" means a kind of carpet in Canada, but an important pass-time in England. What's surprising is not my nickname, but the fact that 65 other people also chose it. [ September 08, 2003, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: Cabron66 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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