Paddington Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 Is there realy a way to beat 4 tigers in a -43 game? When the preferences are 1000points, ME. I had 3x t34 1x company infantry 1x 82mm mortar 1x 76mm/L42 gun Its a pretty open map, I advance my infantry to the woods near the vl. They get some beating by a tiger about 800-900 meters away. The 76mm gun is located in a small patch of woods. The t34s are located behind the wood near the vl. I decide to smoke the vl and advance whit my infantry. The men take punishment from some machinegun fire from the tigers, but they get to the woods whit a few men. There they fight against a platoon of germans, and its not going well. My gun is firing on one of the tigers. It gets several flank shots but its no use. The tigers start to advance on my infantry... I order my tanks to kill the tiger, they rush from the woods and get some flank shots at about 300 meters. No effect. My tanks get destroyed by the single tiger one by one... Whit no options left i surender and get a total los. What would you have done? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 The only way you to beat those odds is to have a serious weather / cover advantage. In a rainy climate, with plenty of small hills and woods your T-34's can out-maneuver the Tigers, and with little luck the German tanks will bog in some distant location. Otherwise, you'll need tungsten rounds and heavenly fortune. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 Originally posted by Bone_Vulture: The only way you to beat those odds is to have a serious weather / cover advantage. In a rainy climate, with plenty of small hills and woods your T-34's can out-maneuver the Tigers, and with little luck the German tanks will bog in some distant location. Otherwise, you'll need tungsten rounds and heavenly fortune. 4 Tigers and a plt of inf are 1000pts - but only with rarity off, unrestricted or armor force and regulars or worse. If rarity is off, then you can buy 57mm guns. These will work better than 76mm. Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 Good point, Joachim. Sure, if you have access to better AT guns then of course the 57mm variant is the winner. Pure tank-vs-tank combat is trickier. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 woah woah woah. the 57mm is better? i've been going for the 76.2. am i making a mistake? any help would be appreciated. on topic: the T34's best asset is its speed. the Axis armour has superb front armour but it's side is definately penertrable. use the speed of the T34 to make any ME into an attack defense. the Tiger needs to sit on a hill at the back of the map. let it, find a position in front of the flags where you can defend them & not be seen from it's vantage point. if they try to bring them close to get LOS predict where they need to be & ambush them. also, using a small Flak gun to get constant hits on the Tiger usually un-nerves the opponent so they move out of LOS. they are too expensive to risk a gun hit on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 The 57 mm has a one helluva muzzle velocity compared to the 76L42. But it isn't as common due to being more expensive to produce. The lower caliber shell is also less effective against infantry, and effects of penetration are smaller. Maneuvering may work against an isolated Panther, but a T-34/76 won't kill a Tiger with a side shot, let alone a Tiger platoon led by a human opponent. Probably the best thing to do is to concentrate on killing the enemy infantry, then hoping that the opponent gets depressed and starts drinking heavily. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Carr Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 Originally posted by Paddington: Is there realy a way to beat 4 tigers in a -43 game? When the preferences are 1000points, ME. I had 3x t34 1x company infantry 1x 82mm mortar 1x 76mm/L42 gun Its a pretty open map, I advance my infantry to the woods near the vl. They get some beating by a tiger about 800-900 meters away. The 76mm gun is located in a small patch of woods. The t34s are located behind the wood near the vl. I decide to smoke the vl and advance whit my infantry. The men take punishment from some machinegun fire from the tigers, but they get to the woods whit a few men. There they fight against a platoon of germans, and its not going well. My gun is firing on one of the tigers. It gets several flank shots but its no use. The tigers start to advance on my infantry... I order my tanks to kill the tiger, they rush from the woods and get some flank shots at about 300 meters. No effect. My tanks get destroyed by the single tiger one by one... Whit no options left i surender and get a total los. What would you have done? Sounds ugly. Any scenario where the odds are the same number of Tigers or Panthers to T-34's, unless they are T-34/85's, is generally a losing proposition. The only suggestion that I can think of is to allow your infantry to take a ,hopefully, temporary pasting while maneuvering your T-34's into an advantageous position to deliver a side or rear shot to the Tiger or Tigers. Occupy the Tigers with an infantry assault. Again, hopefully, this buys you some time to manuever into position. No idea what the map was like. Don't know how easy or hard it would be to do such manuevering so I may be oversimplifying the solution. Only you could know this. To me, the real problem lies in discovering what your up against. Do you know you are up against four Tigers in advance? If not, you may have had a plan in mind that fell to pieces when you came to the discovery that you were up against four Tigers. Yes? No? Maybe? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 There is if rariety is off. Don't use the vanilla stuff, use anti-Tiger stuff. Pick a number of assets in the 200-300 point range which are capable of getting a Tiger or two if things go well. E.g. 2xSU-152 - 231 2x57mm ATG plus 1xM3 Scout Car - 169 Pioneer Company plus 3 Flamethrower - 235 Sturmovik IL-2M - 219 3xStuG (captured) - 218 5xValentine IX - 302 (Defending) 203mm FO + 4 TRP - 223 Pick 3. Maybe they only get half the Tigers, but they won't just wallow helplessly. You can also put together a 50-150 point harassment group, e.g. - 1-2 sharpshooter, 2-4 ATRs, 0-2 20mm AA (best if defending), 0-3 Amupolets. These are unlikely to kill a Tiger, but can keep them buttoned and force them to risk damage to operate in the open. They are hard to spot at range, which can keep them alive and firing. (The Amupolets, use indirect for the same reason). I hope this helps. [ December 19, 2003, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 JasonC has some good pointers as well. Yes, Sturmoviks are excellent tank killers, but heavy enemy flak activity, poor weather and lack of control usually prevent their efficient use. The Valentine IX tanks are probably the best purchase. Although worthless for just about any other task than battling with enemy armor, the solid metal slugs these babies fire have excellent penetration potential in comparison to other Soviet tanks in that time. Snipers are quite cost-effective, as the death of the Tiger tank's spotter will reduce it's effectiveness in combat quite dramatically. A half-blind Tiger is more susceptible to brave maneuvers by your T-34's. I'm a bit sceptic about the use of (I)SU-152's... They cost much, and reload so slowly that they're as good as dead if the first round fails to connect. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 I've had generally good luck with the IL-2s. They can immobilize a Tiger even with a strafing pass. Immobilized in the wrong spot is often all you can hope for against the beasties. And in smallish QBs, MEs especially, Flak is relatively rare. As for SU-152s, the way to use them is to shoot and scoot with the pair of them, going after a single Tiger, from complete cover beforehand. Each fires once. The chance that either one or the other connects is pretty good, and when they connect they can kill. If you scoot back into cover quickly enough you can often do this unscathed, with slow turret speeds saving you. (Never "hunt" - the SUs will cower - or linger in LOS, with the long reload time). The low ROF doesn't matter so much when you are only firing once per minute anyway. The StuGs should not be overlooked. Rariety is their only real drawback. They only have 50mm fronts so they aren't heavily protected, unlike the German's own. But they still have a gun that kills at range, with good ROF and optics, and they are dirt cheap with rariety off. As for the Val IXs, I don't know that they are the best buy, actually. They may seem so, just looking at the guns you are getting for the price, but in practice they have serious drawbacks. They aren't the fastest tanks, and that makes it harder to exploit slow Tiger turrets or to get flank shots. They can sometimes "cower". They are pretty much pure AT, with limited infantry stopping ability (unlike SU-152s, which nuke infantry if Tigers don't crawl forward to stop them). Their rounds will still often bounce from Tiger fronts, despite what the numbers say - they aren't as capable as the towed Russian 57mm in pure Tiger killing terms. People should notice that the suggestion to take 3 of the anti-Tiger assets and perhaps a harassment team is not meant to use up all of the points. Some are left for infantry. You want to at least match the Germans in infantry numbers, so they have to get a lot out of the Tigers to win. One other item I left out because it doesn't apply in MEs. On defense, particularly in heavily wooded terrain, it makes sense to spend 50-100 points on AT mines. Especially if one of your anti-Tiger assets is the pioneer company with FTs. You can get reasonable coverage by combining AT mines, impassable woods, and demo charge and FT ambushes. The main drawback tends to be the small set up zone, not letting you place the mines far enough forward. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 Jason, you recommend using the SU-152. i've recently started a Tiger hunt & opted for the SU-122. thinking that it has all the penetration needed but also has the higher ROF & ammo load out to give it an advantage. in fact with crack crews you can get 2 shots off in the same time as a Tiger can. by the 2nd shot you usually have a hit and a hit is a kill. would you not say this is better? especially if you can arrange odds as you must with the SU-152. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlow Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 Depending on the date, T34/57 is also an option. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 The SU-122 is not a good Tiger killer, particularly in 1943. It needs HEAT to do anything - it has no AP and its HE won't do more than scratch the paint. They typically have only a handful of HEAT rounds each. The muzzle velocity is also very low, half that of the SU-152, making it far less accurate at medium range and hopeless at long range. SU-122s are basically Russian StuHs, HE chuckers to kill infantry. You may be thinking of the ISU-122. That does have a high velocity gun with AP ammo, which will kill Tigers. Compared to the ISU-152, it has better ROF and is preferably for the reasons you gave. But the ISUs don't come out at all until 1944. By then the Russians have T-34/85s (with decent ammo, unlike 1943 85mms) and IS-2s, as well, and the Tiger terror has eased. The toughest period against Tigers is the Kursk era and the second half of 1943, when the common T-34s only have 76mm and the late war Russian heavy armor isn't out yet. There are SU-152s by then. But no long barrel, high velocity 122s, only the stubby howitzer SU-122. Don't expect the latter to kill Tigers with any frequency, it won't. Another fellow mentioned the T-34/57. It is a fine anti-Tiger tank, when affordable e.g. rariety off. The Russian 57mm is more powerful than the lend lease ones - though in practice it will often still bounce from the turret front, and get only partials (with some "shell broke ups") against the front hull. (Unlike an SU-152, which will kill if it hits). Does have a high ROF, though, which makes up for some hits not being lethal pretty well. In automotive performance the T-34 chassis is much faster than the Valentine chassis, making it easier to maneuver for flanks and exploit poor turret speed on the Tiger. It is in most respects the best tank fighting tank the Russians have in 1943. They are great against StuGs, for instance. The downside is it costs almost twice as much as a Valentine IX or a towed 57mm ATG. But compared to plain T-34/76s, Marlow is right. There is no contest if the job is killing armor - the T-34/57 is much better. Rariety on usually makes it prohibitively expensive. [ December 21, 2003, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 ... So if you plan to play with full rarity limitations, the Valentines might be the best choice. Also remember the psychological effect: a player who controls the Axis forces might become hesitant to maneuver his Tigers, when there's a risk they'll be shot down by a slow, crappy British tank. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 thanks for the reply. in that case i may be in for a bad time. it's feb 45 & i've taken an SU-122 platoon specifically to frontally kill Tigers. i think they will do the job but they may not be cost effective. do you have any kind of look up table of the properties of the AFV's? i know a lot is experiance, which i'm painfully getting, but anything to help would be very appreciated. [edit] ahh just checked. ISU-122. phew. [ December 21, 2003, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: Other Means ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 With rariety on, the Val IXs are OK, the SU-152s are OK. AT mines, pioneers, and flame are always affordable regardless of rariety. Same for the harassment team (snipers, ATRs), except the 20mm AA (which is so cheap you can still take one if you like). All the captured tanks get expensive, the T-34/57 gets expensive, the towed 57mm, otherwise the best AT bargain going, gets pretty expensive. High caliber arty is out and most air support gets significantly more expensive. You are effectively pushed toward using 76mm weapons - towed ATGs and plain T-34s. Which are passable against ordinary panzers but hopeless against Tigers. If you can get far superior numbers against lone Tigers led by the AI, even those can work, with hail fire damage or closing to point blank from multiple angles, getting side partial penetrations under 200m. But against an entire Tiger platoon commanded by a human being, with anything like even odds, these haven't got a prayer. You are better off using their HE power against the enemy infantry, while avoiding all contact with his Tigers. Without something else to hold them off, though, that won't work for long. The Germans only have to pay around 30% rariety for Tigers in the Kursk era (later it gets even lower), and pay no price to cherry pick only the best available tanks, so rariety on heavily favors the Germans. Far more than is realistic, frankly. The Russians had at least as much 85mm AA and 57mm ATG at Kursk as the Germans had Tigers, to say nothing of Sturmoviks. They also used heavy towed guns, long 122mm and 152mm, in direct fire - not represented at all in CM. With ordinary rariety they pay double cost for any of the good Tiger killers, because they are measured not against Tiger numbers but against the Russian's own 45mm and 76mm ATG numbers - or in the case of the Sturms, against 82mm and 120mm mortar batteries. If the Russians have to use some 45mm and mostly 76mm, and plain T-34s for their armor, the Germans should have to use some 50L60 or 75L24 Panzer IIIs and mostly long 75mm Pz IVs, mixed Gs and Hs. But the existing rariety system just doesn't work that way. With variable rather than fixed rariety, you might find one good anti-Tiger weapon system that just happens to "roll low" for its price. If the towed 57 is cheap you can take those, if Sturms are cheap you can take those. You can always take pioneers and try to strip off the German infantry, and hold only cover interior areas yourself. If the terrain is at all open, though, that won't stop them. Especially if you have to advance, too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 thanks again. on the defense, i've recently had success with using Pioneers as my last line. however to have any hope of them surviving you can't show them until the armour is within satchel range. by that point it's generally been stripped of infantry. SMG squads and arty in the trees & HMG's at the back of the map do the job readily. therefore the firepower in the Pioneer squad has been wasted. so would it not make more sense to use TH teams? they are cheap, fast & can give a good account of themselves if ambushed by infantry. the Pioneers have multiple charges yes but compared to the price of them, they rarely get to use the 2nd charge. is there anything about their use that i've missed that gives them the advantage WRT to THs? [added] BTW, i assume this advice goes for Panthers as well, if not i will start a new thread. cheers. [ December 21, 2003, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: Other Means ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlow Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Originally posted by Other Means: BTW, i assume this advice goes for Panthers as well, if not i will start a new thread. cheers. Not so much. Panthers are very vunerable on the sides. Basically any AT gun is going to have a chance against a panther, provided you get a flank shot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 thanks Marlow, but i was really talking about frontally. if i can lure them in i know how to handle them, which is why my friend generally stands off with them. is the detection signature of the 57mm as big as the 76? or could i have them unhidden at long range hoping for a kill which could only be resolved by the enemy into a sound contact? or is there no chance of the long range kill & i still need to wait & un-hide everything at once? detailed question i know. if no one has the info i'll do a test myself & post the results here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlow Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 From the front a Sov. 57 can penetrate the turret to about 500m with a straight on shot. The front hull is pretty much immune at any range. The ISU122 can ruin Jerry's day out to long range, as can the SU 152 (if it can hit). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Originally posted by Marlow: Not so much. Panthers are very vunerable on the sides. Basically any AT gun is going to have a chance against a panther, provided you get a flank shot. Sidenote: if you are confident that your opponent will purchase Panthers, you might want to place AT guns in forest edges that face your side of the field. With a little luck - especially on bigger maps - your opponent might make the mistake of running his Panthers past your gun, exposing them to a rear shot. Obviously, you should place SMG teams inside the same forest to prevent enemy infantry from stumbling on your AT gun. A very tricky, but extremely pleasing tactic when it works. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 that's what i did on my last defense. actually, i rushed SMG squads & Guards infantry into forest in front of my start line. this allowed me to deny him the forest with the SMG's & get him from defilade as he went past with the infantry. ambushing & falling back under an arty barrage, then reocupying. this also gave me good vision for my HMG's at the back of the map. after stripping the infantry off he was forced to rush his Panthers & PzIV's forward. i had a KV1 keyholed able to take care of the PzIV's one at a time and the Panthers were flank exposed to 45mm ATG's. they took down a couple and then the Pioneers & TH teams got enough to give me the victory. i also had 12,7mm HMG's to take care of his light armour but they had limited success. i think maybe light flak guns would do a better job. i'm getting the hang of defending but my attacking is still woefull. but tips like these against the big cats are very welcome. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undead reindeer cavalry Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 4 green tigers in a 1000 point meeting engagement is gamey and lame, so your opponent deserves to be taugh a lesson in humilation. buy two 76mm artillery or mortar spotters, something like 4 M5 halftracks and 8 trucks, 3 pioneer platoons and 10-15 tank hunter teams and flamethrowers. first lay out a huge smoke with those spotters, then rush the smoked tigers with that legion of halftracks and trucks (note that one can carry both a pioneer platoon and a tank hunter team / flamethrower). it's ugly but works very well. you can spread your tank killers all over the map very fast. M5s and trucks are just too fast for slow tiger turrets in the middle of all that smoke. before you know it the tigers are reversing in horror. pioneers, tank hunter teams and flamethrowers make tigers pop like they were eggs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 with the rarity off, for roughly 500 points you can get: axis: two tigers (veteran) allied: thirty-eight 25mm aa (reg) or twelve 37mm aa (reg) it looks to me like the 25mm can score an immobilization which could lead to an abandonment... a disabling gun hit would be rare from the tests i've seen... thirty eight 25mm aa guns took out 1 tiger the first minute... the other tiger was immobilized and not taken out for several minutes... (lost about 2 25mm) 12 37mm can take out 2 tigers in 2 minutes (lost 4 guns)... the los situation has to be correct though... don't know if the 'aa battalion' tactic would help in certain quick battles.... my tests were on an open map with the guns sitting in steppe terrain oh.. of the 25mm aa... the tigers had a very difficult time spotting these guns, even in steppe... [ December 26, 2003, 04:10 AM: Message edited by: manchildstein II ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 38 AA guns?! :eek: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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