"Un-hittable Gun" Game Bug?

[Sergei]

I did a bit of testing. I used Industrializer's Test Gun scenario as a starting point. I noticed that the Stug's, if I gave them an area fire order, would neglect my specific order and target the gun instead.

So I changed the AT gun into something harmless and harder to spot, which in this case was a hiding, dug-in HQ unit with sneak bonus. Now I could target the top of the berm, which resulted into the team getting shaken, pinned, and finally broken and retreating (with no casualties). Some of the shots fell within some metres of the team, some fell a bit short, and some flew over. Obviously the area fire was very effective, because even though the team was hiding and in a foxhole, it got pinned and broken.

However, if it was a visible AT threat, they'd be shooting "through" the berm. That has no effect, even if the gun is not dug in. You can't over-ride this behaviour once the AFV's spot the gun.

[Dschugaschwili]

My view on this topic:

1. A gun in a reverse slope ("hull down") position should be hard to hit. I don't think anybody will question that.

2. If the barrel of the gun is located high enough to see and fire over the ridge, it should be hittable from the other side. (I'll ignore the trajectory of the shots here, but even if we take that into consideration, everything with a muzzle velocity not higher than that of the gun can definitely retaliate)

3. In CMBB only vehicles have a height. To see this, make a map with the western half of the map at height level 7 and the eastern half at 10. Place a couple of units on the map. You will notice that a LOS line to a non-vehicle unit can be drawn exactly if a LOS line can be drawn to the ground under the unit, but you can see vehicles farther back.

4. This suggests that non-vehicle units can not be hit directly by projectiles. Instead, the ground beneath/near the unit has to be hit.

5. Not being able to hit a part of a gun directly is a problem if the ground the gun stands on is behind a ridge because the projectile should hit the ground in front of the ridge if it was aimed at the base of the gun.

6. A tank gunner would realistically have to aim at a visible part of the "hull down" gun to destroy it. In CMBB the TacAI does not seem to do it, and even if it did, it wouldn't help because the gun can not be hit that way.

7. This seems to be a problem that goes back to CMBO. In CMBO, unarmored vehicles could not be hit directly either, causing the well-known Flak-truck problems. This particular case was changed for CMBB, but to get rid of this problem completely, every unit would have to be able to be hit directly.

I hope this sums up this thread.

Dschugaschwili

[hakstooy]

Steve, I think your reference to people claiming your previous post (other thread) as indication that this is a bug includes me. I tried to recant, but I had definitly put words into your mouth.

Now I am gathering that you were referring to the hull-down, shooting straight into the ground issue, which isn't whats happening here. I misinterpreted, and I'll try to keep my zeal in check. Sorry for calling you out Eric when it was I who didn't look close enough.

Best intentions, even with worst attention.

[Wolfe]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Now that that's out of the way, let's look at this new bug that I have not even heard about until now

Hi, Steve. After reading this thread I set up a small test, found some interesting results and sent my info to Matt. He hasn't responded (he's usually pretty good about that so I guess he's been real busy or out of town), so I'll post here what I wrote to him Monday. Most of this has been discovered by other folks in this thread, but I hope this helps provide some more insight.

Hi, Madmatt. There's been a discussion going on about a possible bug with defilade AT guns. Thread:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=006249

I think there may be something to it. Run the scenario below with FOW Off. Initially you'll get the expected rounds that plow into the hillside, a couple that overshoot and maybe one that lands close. But after the tanks get "settled" on their target, Every Single Round will plow into the hillside; there will be no more 'overs' at all and none that hit the top of the hill either.

If you let that go for a turn or two and then decide to cancel the target and allow the tanks to re-acquire the gun they'll start the process all over again. Most plow into the hill (naturally), a couple fly over, but it quickly settles back into full dig mode.

Alternatively if you target area fire right next to the gun, you'll get the same thing. A couple of overs initially, but then it turns exclusively into a burrowing gopher.

There's nothing wrong with the vast majority of shots being absorbed by the hill (the gun is in a good position), but there should atleast be the occasional over and round that gets close.

The only way to kill the gun using HE is to target the top of the hill itself in front of the gun. This allows more "normal" targeting with rounds that plow into the hill, some that fly over, and a few that land near, eventually taking out the gun.

http://users.erols.com/chare/cm/Unkillable_AT_gun.zip

Thanks.

And this only happens in CMBB 1.02. It behaves "normally" in 1.01, getting a number of overs and a few near shots that will eventually take out the gun. Personally I feel the AT gun dies a bit *too* quickly in 1.01, but that's a discussion for another time.

- Chris

[ March 06, 2003, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Wolfe ]

[Blow2]

My personal belief is that this is a deliberate design for 1.02, to try and offset the fact that, in CM, AT guns ( and infantry guns etc etc) are rendered virtually useless after Shot No.1, since every tank, MG, mortar and arty tube in the planet then knows where it is and, if they can LOS it, shoots the crap out of it.I am all in favour of making guns harder to hit, since it makes for a more interesting game.

I might add that the parameters for getting this enviable position are so tight as to make the rise of life on earth look like a shake 'n' bake recipe.

[Eric Alkema]

Originally posted by hakstooy:

Sorry for calling you out Eric when it was I who didn't look close enough.

Damnit! Now you've taken all the fun out of razzing you.

Hah, what the heck, I'll do it anyway

[hakstooy]

i know, i know...i'm quite the party pooper

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Blow2:

My personal belief is that this is a deliberate design for 1.02, to try and offset the fact that, in CM, AT guns ( and infantry guns etc etc) are rendered virtually useless after Shot No.1, since every tank, MG, mortar and arty tube in the planet then knows where it is and, if they can LOS it, shoots the crap out of it.I am all in favour of making guns harder to hit, since it makes for a more interesting game.

I might add that the parameters for getting this enviable position are so tight as to make the rise of life on earth look like a shake 'n' bake recipe.

interesting :confused:

-tom w

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

snip

There appears to be three hit issues that have been raised on this BBS. Here they are and where we stand on each:

[#1 snipped]

2. Shots walking to target one right after the other in a straight line - looks like something is wrong, but Charles has not looked into it yet and therefore it is not confirmed as a bug. If it turns out to be a bug Charles will try and fix it.

3. Shots impacting at base of a small hill and not hitting some types of targets (i.e. guns) when using more or less flat trajectory fire - my hunch is that this is a bug, but since I only passed the info onto Charles 5 minutes ago I don't have confirmation yet at this point. If it turns out to be a bug Charles will try and fix it.

[snip]

Steve

Steve,

I'm glad these are being looked at. I've recently played a couple of scenarios where either 2 or 3 (if I'm understanding them right) appear to be in effect.

In the example of 2, repeated fire from onboard infantry guns hit the crest of a small hill and would not reach the target (dug in infantry in clear LOS). Target could fire back, but the guns could not adjust fire to reach the target. In this case, the shell craters resulted in a cluster effect. IIRC, I could actually gain line of sight at a point higher than the target, and I tried area targeting that higher point but still hit the berm.

In the example of 3, I had tanks firing at dug in infantry (clear LOS) on the crest of a hill and tankfire walked in a straight line up the hill but could not hit the infantry. This happened in three or four different instances, and in two of them I had two tanks firing at the same position from different angles, creating a neat V of shell craters leading up to the untouched enemy position. In none of these cases did any shells seem to go high--as they might if the gunner were bracketing the target. Shots just consistently slammed in below the target.

It seems like hills that are steep at their base, then gradually level out near the top, with the enemy position somewhat back in the more level (but still sloped) area, tend to create these effects.

These look like bugs to me, since it seems impossible to correct fire. I have files of both games and can send if requested. Thanks again for your willingness to look at and possibly fix these problems.

[Poor Old Spike]

Until Bfront patch this,as they MUST,a stopgap measure might be to target guns with tank mgs only,i.e.-select "no use main gun".

BTW-no matter how neatly a gun is "hull-down",surely an incoming direct fire shell is sooner or later going to smash into the proportion of gunshield that's protruding above the crest,yet I've never seen a gun take a direct hit like that.

[Gen. J-sun]

revive

[Gen. J-sun]

neither have I, as a matter of fact I created my own scenerio

1x Rifle Coy a Sharpshooter and 6 Super Pershings v A Heer Rifle coy and an 88. Sadly I advanced my Pershings near a building and scattered trees within sight of a suspicious patch of woods I was going to reverse my Pershings and have a Sharpshooter or something take a look, but as the rear most tank started to rumble towards safety BOOM! :eek: a disgusting 88 shot ripped throught the side lower hull. Thank goodnessed the Pershing weren't retards and the remaining 5 returned fire, riddling the the hillside of the woods with 90mm, I lost 1 more tank and an upper hull casualty. I didn't dare move my Pershings out of there cover I gave my Sharpshooter a job, TAKE OUT THAT 88 WITH THIS SPRINGFIELD!!! IF YOU DON'T BE SuRE YOU KILL YOURSELF BEFORE I DO, I guess that inspired him, in three "bursts" the 88 was dead and my Pershings emerged and exacted a fiting and hateful revenge not only on the crew but on the enemy Coy as well :cool:

[Kanonier Reichmann]

In case you didn't know Gen. J-sun, this problem was fixed with the patch to 1.03.

Regards

Jim R.

[Sergei]

And has nothing to do with CMBO, in any event.

[1stUkrainianFront]

In the Squad Leader & ASL rules back in the 80s there was a minor note about AT guns not being shot at directly, just getting plastered/suppressed by the enemy shooting all around 'em. Interesting to see this similar topic here.