walpurgis nacht Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 I'm in the middle of a game where a soviet DShK 12.7mm MG took out one of my Panzer IVDs. The tank was unbuttoned, the MG unhid at close range (maybe 100-150 meters) and fired. After one MG volley, the tank was shocked and immediately said "bailing out", which it of course proceeded to do. Now, I remember some pretty exceptional results once in awhile with the mighty .50 cal vs. armor in CMBO, and I of course know that HTs, Hummels, and the like are vulnerable, particularly to the MG42, but losing a medium tank to an MG in CMBB? The DShK is the heaviest russian MG, but doesn't this still seem a bit odd? I have the game saved if anyone wants to see it, but you will have to help me post it here because I've never done that before. [ February 18, 2003, 01:39 AM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Night ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 That does sound really weird. IIRC the 12.7mm equates to a .51 machine gun so thats about equal to a .50 in CMBO... What crew quality was the panzer? Maybe the crew freaked because the commander's head got popped like an oversized balloon and decided they'd had enough? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 IIRC, the Pz IVD was an early version, still in the "support tank" category, meant to provide supportive HE fire from a distance. It's armor was proof only against rifle-caliber rounds and against shell splinters. I could easily envision a .50 cal round doing a number on one...don't forget, the Pz IV's of this generation had lots of open view slits and slots...less use of periscopes. So, while I don't have my armor thickness charts handy, this does not surprise me much, especially if this took place at fairly close range. Use the panzer as it was historically and this might have been a different story. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Carrot Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 I took out a Panzer IIF with one the other day. It taking out a weak Panzer IV (amour wise) does not surprise me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walpurgis nacht Posted February 18, 2003 Author Share Posted February 18, 2003 Sublime, The Panzer IV was a "regular". Originally posted by gunnergoz: Use the panzer as it was historically and this might have been a different story. The entire point of a "soft attack" tank is to withstand and destroy small-arms/MG fire elements. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 Originally posted by Walpurgis Night: Sublime, The Panzer IV was a "regular". </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gunnergoz: Use the panzer as it was historically and this might have been a different story. The entire point of a "soft attack" tank is to withstand and destroy small-arms/MG fire elements. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walpurgis nacht Posted February 18, 2003 Author Share Posted February 18, 2003 Originally posted by Andreas: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Walpurgis Night: Sublime, The Panzer IV was a "regular". </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gunnergoz: Use the panzer as it was historically and this might have been a different story. The entire point of a "soft attack" tank is to withstand and destroy small-arms/MG fire elements. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 Originally posted by Walpurgis Night: Engaging any MG at 150 meters with a medium tank is more than a reasonable risk. In 200+ cmbb QB matches, I have lost a tank once. I call those the most reliable attacker's odds in cmbb. So, what's your problem? Do you think it should be impossible for the Dshk to take out the Panzer IVD? I would say it should be pretty damn unlikely - which it appears to be under combat conditions according to what you are saying. The IVD has just 20mm armour on the sides, at 0°. I find it quite plausible to think that a heavy MG can penetrate this. If you are unlucky enough after that, it will cause crew casualties. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 Originally posted by Andreas: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Walpurgis Night: Engaging any MG at 150 meters with a medium tank is more than a reasonable risk. In 200+ cmbb QB matches, I have lost a tank once. I call those the most reliable attacker's odds in cmbb. So, what's your problem? Do you think it should be impossible for the Dshk to take out the Panzer IVD? I would say it should be pretty damn unlikely - which it appears to be under combat conditions according to what you are saying. The IVD has just 20mm armour on the sides, at 0°. I find it quite plausible to think that a heavy MG can penetrate this. If you are unlucky enough after that, it will cause crew casualties. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSColonel_131st Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 What about crew casualitys? If you have the driver and the commander unbuttoned, and both eat a bullet, the tank is out of the battle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 The US .50 cal was developed as an anti-tank gun, and, IIRC the DSHK uses a larger charge for a bullet of the same calibre (12.7mm =.50") The .50 cal round used by the NSV (which is the same as the DSHK, I think) is rated as penetrating a 20mm plate at 0 degrees and 500m. Allowing for differences, It seems reasonable that the DSHK could get through a PZIV. Question: Which facing of the tank did the MG hit? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigrii Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 Walpurgis said only one casualty was inflicted. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartokomus Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 why don't you look at the movie file again. go down to level 1 and listen for the rounds to come in. is it the armor penetration sounds or the screams of the mortally wounded? i think you need to know this before you worry if your Mk IV was knocked out. i would guess your crew freaked... a thought. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skolman Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 It is possible to knock out a medium tank with a DSHK Machine gun (at least in the game). It was was also possilbe in CMBO (from the rear) Cheers, Skolman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waycool Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 Tank was hit from the right side fairly nice angle. HMG was elevated to the position of Pzkfw4, so I was thinking perhaps a top penetration. Distance was about 180m. We were both suprised by this hit. Waycool [ February 18, 2003, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Waycool ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 100m is mighty close for a tank to get hit with a heavy mg! CM does the penetration values really accurately, no seat-of-the-pants 'guestimation'. If a heavy mg can penetrate armor of that thickness at that angle and range it will! just last night I was mighty surprised when my Elefant got knocked out by a lowly T34-76 at close range. I double-checked the T34's pop-up penetration table and the Elefant's side armor thickness and yup, it could happen. [ February 18, 2003, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: MikeyD ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nippy Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 Originally posted by Bartokomus: why don't you look at the movie file again. go down to level 1 and listen for the rounds to come in. is it the armor penetration sounds or the screams of the mortally wounded? i think you need to know this before you worry if your Mk IV was knocked out. i would guess your crew freaked... a thought. Just ran a test with the mission builder. July 41 3 Reg PZIVD and 6 Reg DSHK All HMG were located to the Side of the tanks and were between 150m and 200m away. All German tanks were buttoned before the mission started. 2 HMGs targeted the side of each tank. Within the first turn all three tanks were knocked out. Review things from the German side the PZIVD lost at least 1 if not two crew members even though they were buttoned up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 OK, so let's review here: 1. Pz IVD EARLY WAR INCARNATION was not up-armored, side skirted tank we later saw, especially in the H, I, J versions that I think many people are recalling. Look at your reference books...the early IV's were tin boxes, not meant to engage at...short range. 2. The DshK was a HEAVY machinegun. Accent on the first word. Big slug, lots of propellant, long barrel and...short range. 3. 1 + 2 = 3: Bad mix for the panzer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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