Inaccuracies and peculiarities in the Armament of the Hungarian Royal Army

[Epaminondas]

The vehicles already seen, namely Turans, Toldis and Csaba etc… are superb pieces, they match to the last rivet. Except for the Zrinyi II assault gun’s howitzer, that is too thin. To vehicle had 52 munitions: 30 HE, 16 hollow charge and 6 smoke. (in practice, half and half anti-tank rounds). So, the assault guns were used anti-tank rounds. Zrinyi II had 75mm front armour-plate (no 50mm).

To Toldi I tank and Csaba armored car had not automatic cannon, on the other hand equip with self-loading gun (Hungarian: nehez puska = heavy rifle). The sound is heard yet automatic. To 40M 40mm AT gun had this mistake also.

To Nimrod had 160 shells, and 6 crew (no 5 crew). In the game:

- Nimrod, caliber 40mm: 26 HE, 9 AP

- Ostwind,caliber 37mm: 195 HE, 55 AP.

Something is defective here, with ratio.

I haven’t seen any 36M 40mm/ L60 Bofors air-defense cannon in the patch list. Now there is some kind of Flak instead, that besides is caliber-length L56.

In the hand of the army officers one can see a Walther P38 pistol, they used this undoubtedly, however 29M or 37M Frommer self-loading pistols were established.

The Hungarian infantry used 31M and 35M Mannlicher infantry rifle in general. One can find rifles with Mauser type bolt-action in the hand of the soldiers. At the beginning of the ’40s our engineers transformed the 35M according to a german request for the Wehrmacht. This was also established in the Hungarian army as well, under the name of 43M, this is the one that slightly resembles a Mauser Kar 98. However it is not that.

With friendly greetings from Hungary

[ December 07, 2002, 06:38 AM: Message edited by: Epaminondas ]

[Gud]

After reading two excellent books on Hungary in ww2 - "Don 1942-1943" by P.Szabo and "Budapest 1944-1945" by M. Sowa I have found more additions to Hungarian OOB:

I) 1942-1943 period:

1. 2nd Army (1942-1943) used following AT-guns:

37mm Bofors

37mm PaK

47mm Belgian

50mm PaK

75mm PaK 97/39 (most)

75mm PaK 40 (few)

2. SMGs were far less common - one-two per platoon usually, exc. for recon units (one per squad)

3. Russian captured weapons were widely used (i suggest Russian SMGs, Maxims, 45mm and 76mm guns)

4. Hungarians used sometimes the 80mm Bofors Heavy AA gun in direct-fire role.

II. 1944-1945 Period

1. Hungarians did use Panzerfausts, certainly during the siege of Budapest

2. As mentioned above, Zrinyi had AP/HEAT shells and was quite succesfull against Soviet tanks.

3. There are no Arrowcross (Hungarian fascists) formations in the game.

[Ex Bellator]

Hi Epaminondas,

Re: The 20mm 'Autocannon' sound, I mentioned this on another thread. I wondered if it was actually an autocannon, or possibly modeled as one in error.

In the end it seems that BFC went for one sound effect for all 20mm guns of any type. So the gun model is apparently OK, but the sound effect is wrong.

Unless BFC decide to introduce another 'one shot' 20mm effect as well as the existing one (probably unlikely) then we are stuck with it.

[ December 02, 2002, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: Rex_Bellator ]

[Battlefront.com]

FINALLY! We've been waiting for some Hungarian Grogs to show up Welcome!

I must say that the research of Hungarian forces was the most difficult of all nations. The data available is sadly very hard to come by in English (or German even). We did the best we could, and I think that your lists are short enough that we should feel pretty good about what we did

It will take some time to comment on the bulk of the points made here, but here are a few quick ones I can comment on now:

In the hand of the army officers one can see a Walther P38 pistol,

This is what all Axis nations have for pistols. Unfortunately, the graphics engine was not designed to display different pistols graphics for different nations. In fact, CMBO didn't have pistol graphics at all But from a game standpoint, there is no impact.

The Hungarian infantry used 31M and 35M Mannlicher infantry rifle in general.

I was wondering when someone would notice The small arms were finished at the last minute. A couple did not get into the game for 1.0. The 1.01 patch fixed some of these, but the 35M is still missing. That is correct. It should be fixed for 1.02.

SMGs were far less common - one-two per platoon usually, exc. for recon units (one per squad)

Very true, but it depends on the year. For the most part each Squad only has one SMG, until the rebuilding period inbetween Stalingrad and the offensive against Hungary itself. My sources indicated that the frontline troops were generally able to field two SMGs per Squad.

Also, it is difficult to make a Platoon have less than one per Squad. Because we had no solid evidence that the number was less than this, on average, we kept it simple with one per Squad.

There are no Arrowcross (Hungarian fascists) formations in the game.

True. It has been a year since I did the research for this, so forgive me if I am wrong here... but it was my understanding that such forces were not of any significance in terms of frontline or even occupied territory fighting?

Thanks!

Steve

[Gud]

OI ! We have atrracted the attention of Powers That Be !! Tremble !! We're not worthy, we're not worthy etc

Seriously:

Arrowcross - after Germans took over Hungary many new ad hoc units were rushed to front, including Arrowcross, Hungarian SS (Waffen-SS Regiment "Ney"), auxilla units (military police, security etc.). In general these units used the German principle of using auto weapons to compensate for lack of training with rifles/MGs. Weapons used were often captured Soviet/Jugoslav SMGs, German MP's and mandatory PzFausts and Molotovs.

SMGs - yes the 1/platoon ratio was on paper, most likley more weapons were "acquired" along the way.

LMGs - Honved made great use of Jugoslavian LMGs, esp in Pioneer and Cavalry units.

Toldi - I have info that surviving Toldi tanks had skirts attached in 1944 (not that it made much difference...)

Cheers,

Gud

[Epaminondas]

Hello!

Ferenc Szalasi’s party (arrowcross) got control over the country, after 15. October 1944. So-called Armed Nation Service and Armed Party Service’ members served, as auxiliary military force, or they fought, as ad hoc combat group. Regiment of Karoly Ney hussar-first lieutenant and SS-Sturmbannführer equiped with armament the Waffen-SS. Two Waffen-SS division organized in Hungary, namely 25. Hunyadi and 26. Hungaria, but the troops have not trained. These troops used german uniform.

I send some pictures.

To the war's beginning manufactured, approx. 565000 31M and 35M infantry rifles. (cartridge: 8x56R mm)

During the war manufactured, approx. 91500 43M Mannlicher rifles. (cartridge: 7,92x57 mm)

Nimrod issue. We see, that 5 crew in the turret and 1 crew is the driver.

Nimrod combat-technological chart

Crew-Személyzet (top)

Munition-Lőszerkiszabat (below)

To be continue....

[ December 18, 2002, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: Epaminondas ]

[uhu]

Thanks for the quick reaction Battlefront! (in the name of all hungarian CMBB fans

Epaminondas was rigth about theese things, which should be correected. Maybe, if ti helps, i can get the mail adress of my friend, who works in the Hungarian Militaric Archive - he could give information about hungarian equipment and OOB.

Some other minor "bug": i don't know, how it is completely in the game, but it is not almost correct, when Tigers and Panthers avaible were.

-Tigers: from 44.july-44.sept (some saw action at the battle of Torda in sept)

-Panthers: from 44.sept-44.febr.

Panzerfausts: from the mid of 44., about all inf. battalion had a panzer-destroyer platoon (35-40 men), mostly all of them had one pf. It could be modelled, that the tank hunters have 2 pf-s.

xxx

By the way, I thank you lot, that you have so accuratly modelled the hungarian units - plus this is the first game, which has hungarian voices in, and is not a local version!

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

FINALLY! We've been waiting for some Hungarian Grogs to show up Welcome!

I must say that the research of Hungarian forces was the most difficult of all nations. The data available is sadly very hard to come by in English (or German even). We did the best we could, and I think that your lists are short enough that we should feel pretty good about what we did

It will take some time to comment on the bulk of the points made here, but here are a few quick ones I can comment on now:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />In the hand of the army officers one can see a Walther P38 pistol,

This is what all Axis nations have for pistols. Unfortunately, the graphics engine was not designed to display different pistols graphics for different nations. In fact, CMBO didn't have pistol graphics at all But from a game standpoint, there is no impact.

The Hungarian infantry used 31M and 35M Mannlicher infantry rifle in general.

I was wondering when someone would notice The small arms were finished at the last minute. A couple did not get into the game for 1.0. The 1.01 patch fixed some of these, but the 35M is still missing. That is correct. It should be fixed for 1.02.

SMGs were far less common - one-two per platoon usually, exc. for recon units (one per squad)

Very true, but it depends on the year. For the most part each Squad only has one SMG, until the rebuilding period inbetween Stalingrad and the offensive against Hungary itself. My sources indicated that the frontline troops were generally able to field two SMGs per Squad.

Also, it is difficult to make a Platoon have less than one per Squad. Because we had no solid evidence that the number was less than this, on average, we kept it simple with one per Squad.

There are no Arrowcross (Hungarian fascists) formations in the game.

True. It has been a year since I did the research for this, so forgive me if I am wrong here... but it was my understanding that such forces were not of any significance in terms of frontline or even occupied territory fighting?

Thanks!

Steve</font>

[BlackVoid]

I have one good source regarding hungarian infantry equipment.

This is the book of Bela Erdelyi: Blood and Steel

He was a company commander during the withdrawal fighting in the winter of 42-43.

He lists available equipment of his company several times. Unfortunately he does not give actual weapon types.

Here is one example:

Officers: 5

Men: 130 (4 platoons)

Pistols: 5

Machine guns: 1 (7600 rds for it)

Light machine guns: 9

SMGs: 22

Rifles: 91

Hand grenades: 500

So indeed, they had at least 1 SMG per squad. The author mentions a special squad who had only SMGs. They were assigned to the most dangerous tasks.

He also mentions that the russians had a lot of SMGs. He regarded SMGs as superior to rifles. It is interesting that in CMBB SMGs are really not that good. You are better of with rifles in most situations.

He also mentiones that the weather was extreme cold, around -30 C, and of course the ground was covered in snow. This should also be fixed for QBs. This is the south region of the front.

BTW, did anyone know, that Hungary was about to attack Romania in the summer of 1940? Both armies were ordered to the common border.

This was in the end prevented by german diplomatic intervention.

[Gud]

Some more info:

Nimrod certianly had more AP ammo, it was meant to be tank-destroyer !! I have info that it had Tungsten ammo (?/) as well was able to fire SteilGranate (as per 37mm Pak).

Some links on 2nd Army

Hung. Tank Specs

2nd Army Data

[Michael Dorosh]

Just a word of thanks, and welcome, to the Hungarians - you're not the only ones who want to see this all modelled correctly; CM fans around the world look forward to seeing the info you are thoughtfully and generously providing. It's of benefit to us all.

[Gud]

Well, actually I'm Polish, but as old saying goes:

"Polak Madziar dwa bratanki i do szabli i do szklanki !"

(Pole and Magyar are two nephews, both with sabre and with glass !)

And so Hungary in ww2 is my little hobby

[Gud]

Damn, I forgot to post link to Nimrod gun reference. here it is !!!

Hungarian AT data

[Guest Mike]

Hey Gud - slightly off topic - do you happen to know any good sources on battles in the 16th & 17th century involving Hussaria??

[Epaminondas]

Mike, the best site about hussars are a Polish site, in English. www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PolishHorseArtillery.htm

True that, the site is engaged in winged hussars, a with special kind. The Hungarian matters are, only in Hungarian, unfortunately.

Toldi I issue: gun: self-loading (20mm), 208 shells, machine-gun: 2400 bullets (8mm)

Toldi IIA: gun:55 shells (40mm), machine-gun: 3200 bullets (8mm)

Toldi III: gun:87 shells (40mm), munition: 3200 bullets (8mm)

Toldi III light tank combat-technological chart:

munition-lőszer javadalmazás (below)

gun-a löveghez

machine-gun-a géppuskához

Turan issue: Side armour of the Turan I and Turan II tanks had only 25mm thick. (no 40mm).

40M Turan medium tank chart:

Armour-Pancelzat (below)

Front-mellso függőleges

Side and rear-oldal és far

Top-alsó es felső

Munition-lőszerkiszabat

Csaba issue: Armour of the Csaba armoured car is not accurate.

Front armour: 13mm (this is good)

Rear and side armour: 9mm (no 7mm)

Gun: self-loading (20mm), 200 shells, machine-gun: 3000 bullets (8mm)

36M 40mm air-defense gun issue: (originally Bofors), caliber-length L60

There:

To be continued...

[ December 18, 2002, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Epaminondas ]

[Stalin's Organ]

Originally posted by Epaminondas:

Mike, the best site about hussars are a Polish site, in English. www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PolishHorseArtillery.htm

True that, the site is engaged in winged hussars, a with special kind. The Hungarian matters are, only in Hungarian.

Yhanks - I have read that site and corresponded with the author - unfortunately I don't regard it as very good - his explainatoin for the Hussaria's successes - that their lances were longer than pikes - is nonsense. The lances were certainly as long or sometimes longer than pikes, but there's a lot more to it than that IMO.

[manchildstein (ii)]

Originally posted by Epaminondas:

During the war manufactured, approx. 91 500 M43 Mannlicher rifles. (cartridge: 7,92x57 mm)

is that about as potent as 30.06?

[offtaskagain]

Originally posted by manchildstein II:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Epaminondas:

During the war manufactured, approx. 91 500 M43 Mannlicher rifles. (cartridge: 7,92x57 mm)

is that about as potent as 30.06?</font>

[manchildstein (ii)]

Originally posted by panzerwerfer42:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by manchildstein II:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Epaminondas:

During the war manufactured, approx. 91 500 M43 Mannlicher rifles. (cartridge: 7,92x57 mm)

is that about as potent as 30.06?</font>

[flamingknives]

The German Mauser round is the 7.92x57mm - larger caliber and larger charge than the NATO 7.62, hence a more powerful round.

[manchildstein (ii)]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

The German Mauser round is the 7.92x57mm - larger caliber and larger charge than the NATO 7.62, hence a more powerful round.

isn't the german mauser the same round as the mg42?... i thought they used the same cartridge for both their rifles and mgs...

[flamingknives]

isn't the german mauser the same round as the mg42?... i thought they used the same cartridge for both their rifles and mgs...

Yes. Also known as the 8mm round, IIRC. I'm guessing it was called the Mauser round as the rifle came first.

[Epaminondas]

Zrinyi II issue: Accurate designation of the assault gun was 40/43M Zrinyi assault howitzer or Zrinyi II (no Zrinyi, so simply). Our engineers designed the vehicle, with long barrel (caliber 75mm), this was namely the Zrinyi I or 43M Zrinyi assault cannon, from of this they maded only prototype.

Side and rear armour of the Zrinyi II assault gun had only 25mm thick (no 40mm). Front-armour 75mm (no 50mm).

gun: 10,5cm howitzer, caliber-length: L20

52 shells: 30 high-explosiv, 16 hollow-charge(cumulative), 6 smoke

Zrínyi II combat-technological chart:

Armour- pancelzat (below)

Front- mellsö

Side and rear- oldal es far

Munition- Löszerjavadalom

30 HE- 30 repesz

16 hollow-charge- 16 pc. robb.

6 smoke- 6 ködgr.

The assault gun's howitzer is slightly thin in the game.

There in the original.

To be continued...

[ December 13, 2002, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: Epaminondas ]

[illo]

Nimrod had 40mm bofors with 120 rounds regarding to this site. http://mtg.ipx.pl/wegry/lekkie.htm

[illo]

Here Structure and Equipment, Summer 1942, hungarian army.

http://members.tripod.com/~Sturmvogel/Hung2Army.html

[Epaminondas]

Anti-tank gun issue:

The 40M 40mm AT gun was developed from originally German Pak36 37mm. The new cannon-barrel was far length.

The 2nd army equiped with 36M 47mm AT gun, that turned out to Don river. The gun was German plunder from Belgian campaign. After the Don disaster Hungarian soldiers could save few equipment. The 36M 47mm AT gun is too powerfull in the game, actually the cannon's shell penetrated on much less armour.

100m - 60mm - 90degree

300m - 47mm - ????

500m - 45mm - ???

700m - 41mm - 90degree

Weapon originally: 47mm SA FRC (Belgian)

Caliber-length: L32 (no L41)

The gun is on the way.

The gun fire about firing platform.

PzIII issue:

The Hungarian troops didn't use PzIIIj(short) tanks, on the other hand, they used PzIII M medium tanks. Hungarian designation of the vehicle: Pz. III. M közepes harckocsi.

Approx. that's all.

[ January 04, 2003, 07:09 AM: Message edited by: Epaminondas ]