I officially hate cover arcs

[Freyland]

Playing a recent scenario with my wife, I had two CA incidents in two adjacent turns.

#1) I have a tank hunter team hidden in a patch of woods. My wife has a sherman approaching; maybe I could attack it now at 44m, but I opt to make an Armor CA to ensure he waits until it is a little closer, and to ensure he does not focus on the nearby Sherman instead of the soon-to-be closer one. Her tank barely skirts the CA, and is practically *on top* of my guy, but he does not open up. Suddenly, he is spotted by everyone and their brother, and shot to pieces.

#2) Next turn, I have a LMG with a cover arc spreading over a field where her troops are about to move, so I get a nice killzone to play with. During the turn, three of her troops immediately enter and pass unmolested through a wide section of the CA. At turns end they are still in the arc, and my guy has not unhidden, nor shot. What's the point of CA? I miss ambush markers.

Jonathan

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Freyland:

Playing a recent scenario with my wife, I had two CA incidents in two adjacent turns.

#1) I have a tank hunter team hidden in a patch of woods. My wife has a sherman approaching; maybe I could attack it now at 44m, but I opt to make an Armor CA to ensure he waits until it is a little closer, and to ensure he does not focus on the nearby Sherman instead of the soon-to-be closer one. Her tank barely skirts the CA, and is practically *on top* of my guy, but he does not open up. Suddenly, he is spotted by everyone and their brother, and shot to pieces.

#2) Next turn, I have a LMG with a cover arc spreading over a field where her troops are about to move, so I get a nice killzone to play with. During the turn, three of her troops immediately enter and pass unmolested through a wide section of the CA. At turns end they are still in the arc, and my guy has not unhidden, nor shot. What's the point of CA? I miss ambush markers.

Jonathan

Are your troops Green?

[Freyland]

Hello Mr. Dorosh

I will have to check next time we load up. They are a combination of green, regular and Veteran. The LMG was in command, however.

Jonathan

[Sergei]

When I stepped into this thread and read this, I thought I was reading an account of a family quarrel gone bad.

Originally posted by Freyland:

My wife has a sherman approaching; maybe I could attack it now at 44m

At least tanks can abandon the CA order if they realise there is a threat outside the arc.

[Freyland]

Adam_L, both units were on hide. If they were not, would it not make it much easier for her oncoming units to see mine from a distance?

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Freyland:

Adam_L, both units were on hide. If they were not, would it not make it much easier for her oncoming units to see mine from a distance?

Well, you can't have your cake and eat it, too. . .

The spottability of infantry units was substantially reworked in CMBB. So long as an infantry unit is (1) in good cover, (2) not moving or firing, it is VERY unlikely to be spotted until the enemy gets extremely close to it, even if it isn't hiding. This is especially true for small units like Tank Hunter teams and Sharpshooters. This assumes that you are playing Extreme FOW, of course.

In general, what you want to do with Tank Hunters is leave them unhidden, but give them a very short covered arc so they won't cook off prematurely. This dramatically improves their spotting ability at an only slightly increased chance of being spotted. The only time I put small infantry units like Tank Hunters and Sharpshooters on "Hide" is if they are in very marginal cover (brush, the very edge of scattered trees, etc), and there are enemy units in LOS less than 100m away.

In marginal weather and/or light conditions, it is actually possible for a sharpshooter or TH team to remain unspotted in open ground so long as the unit isn't moving or shooting. I recall a fight in a snowstorm (max LOS was ~ 100m, IIRC) where I put a TH team about 30m off a road in open ground, unhidden and with a Cover Arc on the road. A T-34 trundled right up the road without spotting the TH team at all. As the tank passed, the TH team KOed the tank with a PzWurfMine and SMGed the crew. My opponent never saw what hit him.

I wish all my amubsh plans worked that well. . .

In your specific situation with the Tank Hunter, I would have done exactly what you did, but unhidden the TH team in addition to giving it short cover arc. Woods are pretty darn good cover, and AFVs in general aren't very good at spotting infantry. There is one possible exception to this: AFVs spot significantly better directly in front of them (seems to be about a 45 degree arc), and they also spot *much* better when unbuttoned. If your wife's Sherman was both unbuttoned *and* positioned so that your TH team was directly in front of it, I would be a bit worried about TH team being spotted before it had a chance to attack. Otherwise, though, even an unhidden TH team is very unlikely to be spotted by an enemy AFV until the AFV is practically on top of it (which is exactly what happened in your case).

Cheers,

YD

[Jack Carr]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Freyland:

Adam_L, both units were on hide. If they were not, would it not make it much easier for her oncoming units to see mine from a distance?

Well, you can't have your cake and eat it, too. . .

...In general, what you want to do with Tank Hunters is leave them unhidden, but give them a very short covered arc so they won't cook off prematurely. This dramatically improves their spotting ability at an only slightly increased chance of being spotted. The only time I put small infantry units like Tank Hunters and Sharpshooters on "Hide" is if they are in very marginal cover (brush, the very edge of scattered trees, etc), and there are enemy units in LOS less than 100m away... </font>

[tar]

I trust BFC's assurances that the AI doesn't cheat. I suspect that your observations are an artifact of human selective memory. You only really notice the situations where something really bad happens to you, even if it is through chance.

[YankeeDog]

In general, yes; 'unmarginal' concealment (as opposed to cover) would include woods, pines, buildings, and woods. I would also include rubble and rough 'unmarginal' category.

It all depends on specifics. It's a pretty easy for an infantry unit positioned in scattered trees to remain unspotted to a nearby enemy in midsummer (when there's lots of foliage) under overcast skies at dusk even though theoretical maximum LOS under these conditions is still measured in hundreds of meters. So playing in these conditions, I would tend keep any infantry units in scattered trees unhidden to improve my chances of spotting enemy units unless I knew the enemy was very close.

Mid-day, clear skies, in the middle of winter (no foliage), scattered trees provide a lot less concealment, and so I'd be much more likely to hide even a sharpshooter in scattered trees under these conditions.

How close the unit is to the 'edge' of the cover is also a factor. In general, you want units at least 3-4m back from the edge of even the heaviest cover (i.e., woods and buildings). In marginal cover like scattered trees, 20-30m back is often a good idea, unless you need a really wide field of fire, or you want to maximize 'to hit' chance for an AT Gun, for example.

It also depends a lot on who is doing the hiding. Experience level definitely matters. So long as they aren't firing, 'spottability' for an infantry unit seems to be pretty closely related to number of men in the unit. So all other conditions being equal, sharpshooters are the hardest to spot, then 2-man AT teams, then 3-4 man HQs, etc. I think Arty FOs may be an exception to this. It does seem like FOs are a bit easier to spot when not hiding than other 2-man teams. Perhaps this reflects their radio, or field telephone or whatever.

As I noted before, it also depends a lot on who is observing, and what the observing unit is doing. An buttoned, moving tank can't see a damn thing except in a limited arc in front of the vehicle. Stationary, unbuttoned vehicles do considerably better, though still not quite as good as infantry units.

Binoculars/optics seem to improve the ability to 'resolve' a long-range sound contact, and also to get more detail about a contact (AFV type, etc.), but don't seem to do much of anything for close-range spotting. For close-range spotting, it seems to be all about the number of eyes - full squads spot best.

In all cases, movement and experience level matter a LOT. Running units spot nothing. Moving units spot better, but can still pass pretty close to an unmoving enemy in good cover and see nothing. Stationary units spot the best and can sometimes gain 'sound contacts' to even hiding enemy infantry units in their immediate vicinity (~50m) even if they can't see them (try urban fighting for this - you can sometimes get a 'sound contact' to enemy camped out in an adjacent building if you let your men sit still and listen for a while - patience is a virtue, and high experience level helps a lot if you want to see this phenomenon).

So, in our little case example, if the Weather conditions are good, Wife's Sherman is Crack, Unbuttoned, and heading directly at the TH team, it might well spot the TH before the TH gets a shot at it with a PzF or whatever. These are pretty ideal circumstances for the Tank, though. Most of the time a TH team in good cover but not hiding stays undetected by an approaching tank until after it gets at least one good crack at the beast.

Another thought: I've noticed that TH teams, and indeed infantry units in general don't really like to reveal themselves and fire on a tank that is pointed directly at them. I suppose this makes sense; with the tank running directly at them, the TH team has 2 MGs and a big @ss gun pointed right at them, which is probably pretty unnerving; if they don't KO the tank on the first try, there's likely to be a world of hurt coming their way. Position your TH team so it gets a flank or rear shot on the tank, and it's usually more than willing to release its AT weapons, and indeed can often get off 2 or 3 attempts at the tank before it gets spotted at all, even with the bigger and noisier weapons like Panzerfausts.

Oh, one other thing: The Computer AI, both StratAI and TacAI, works on exactly the same tactical information that the human player sees. Whatever it may look like, the other player, computer or human, does not 'know' where your covered arcs are. If the enemy manages to avoid your covered arcs, It's just coincidence or luck, or a good guess. . . Believe me, I've been there before, and had my perfect ambush ruined by a tank seemingly deliberately turning just before it hits my CA.

Cheers,

YD

[Freyland]

"Wife's Sherman is..." That possessive amuses the hell out of me.

Thank you guys for responding. I guess I have to take from this that it is often better not to hide the unit unless cover is poor. BTW, the MG had a wide cover arc; the enemy spent most of his turn in it and ended his turn in it.

Jonathan

[Rokossovski]

Freyland: You are able to convince your wife to play Combat Missions with you? You are officially the luckiest man on earth. I don't know what it would take to convince my significant other (who is wonderful in most respects) to view Combat Missions as anything more than unwelcome competition for my attention.

Side note: there are few things more appealing than a woman who knows how to approach your position, face you directly, and slowly, sensuously, unbutton her... M4 Sherman.

[Cull]

Sometimes, I feel that the AI takes advantage of the fact that it knows where the covered arc is and stops it's vehicles just outside of it just long enough to spot the offender and uncover the ambush. I have also seen a covered arc set up in an area where there is a narrow lane that is not covered and somehow, the enemy vehicles choose the narrow lane to proceed into enemy held territory thereby foiling the ambush entirely.

Christ, I know it does. The same goes for artillery markers. I've resorted to using the arcs more for preventing my units' firing than anything. If you're lucky, you can use the arcs to force the AI to go where you'd really like them to, since you know they'll work around your arcs, even through some pretty ridiculous routes.

Maybe we should think of them like those invisible electric dog fences

[Freyland]

Originally posted by Rokossovski:

Freyland: You are able to convince your wife to play Combat Missions with you? You are officially the luckiest man on earth. I don't know what it would take to convince my significant other (who is wonderful in most respects) to view Combat Missions as anything more than unwelcome competition for my attention.

I am extremely lucky, in fact. She watched me play some PBEM CM:BO one day and my 75 inch INF gun blew up a house and KO'd an AT team, and she said, "okay, that was cool". I taught her to play, she played some QB vs the AI and off we went. After 6 games of CMBO we moved on to CMBB as well as the CMAK demo. BTW.... she has won about a third of our games :eek:

Jonathan

[PseudoSimonds]

I've found CA's to be very important in some of the operations I've played, especially when I'm heavily outnumbered by the attacker. CA's are an effective way of making the maximum impact at the minimum expense of ammunition. Before I started using CA's I found that I was running out of ammo a lot, resulting in my positions being overrun. I haven't played CMBO as much so I can't really compare it to the ambush markers, but I have no complaints with the cover arcs in CMBB.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Originally posted by Freyland:

She watched me play some PBEM CM:BO one day and my 75 inch INF gun blew up a house and KO'd an AT team, and she said, "okay, that was cool".

Jeez, that's some big-assed gun! I must have missed the railway gun in the OOB.

Regards

Jim R.

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by tar:

I trust BFC's assurances that the AI doesn't cheat. I suspect that your observations are an artifact of human selective memory. You only really notice the situations where something really bad happens to you, even if it is through chance.

I have never heard that the AI doesn't cheat. I have seen numerous times when it has. I had 3 Stug's with veteran or crack crews who fired and missed AI T-34's at less than 100 meters from ambush. The T-34's all with green crews fired back and got one shot kills. But the worst I ever experienced was a battle of T-34/76's against T-34/76's. I was playing the Russians against the AI. The German T-34/76's fired and killed 22 of mine while all my rounds from the same gun against the same armor at the same tanks acheived was TWO GUN KILLS! Yes, the AI cheats. All AI's cheat that is how they give you a good fight. Even with that there are limitations to the AI. It may not be perfect but it is by far better than anything else out there.

Panther Commander

[Redwolf]

Also note that the cover arc is used to limit the scope of the "move to contact" command. If there is a cover arc set during move-to-contact, then only enemy units in the cover arc will make them stop.

Which of course is still a much too inflexible mechanism, even more so since you cannot have a static cover arc, only the moving one.

Another problem I have with cover arcs is that an armor arc doesn't prevent somebody from opening fire on scout cars. In CMBB defenses this was pretty bad since the actual tanks, the guy that you wanted to get, were faster than scout cars. So scout cars driving around made the defender unable to use an armor arc and then you could just race your T-34s through while the defending guns are switched off.

Amoung the new features in CMBB cover arc is probably one of the better ones but it is still showing that the increase in control from CMBO to CMBB should have better been done with SOPs, not more combined commands.