AOK. 11 Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 I ran into this model of the Panzer IV(?) family today and was thoroughly intrigued. I looked in the 1943-1945 volume of Thomas L. Jentz's excellent "Panzetruppen - The Complete Guide to the Creation and Combat Employment of Germany's Tank Force" and it did not contain any mention of or information concerning the Pz.Kpfw. IV/70 model (V) or (A). I was wondering if any of you could share your knowledge with me on this model Panzer: When was it designed? Was it ever produced in high numbers, or was it a working prototype?, What is its relationship with the Pz.Kpfw. IV family?, technical data, Ect. I would appreciate any information. Thank you 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emar Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 Perhaps the Jagdpanzer IV/70? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK. 11 Posted June 14, 2004 Author Share Posted June 14, 2004 The Jagdpanzer IV has the standard 75mm/48 long gun and is equiped with one MG. The Pz.Kpfw. IV/70 is equiped with just the 75mm/70 gun without an additional MG. I am not sure whether a jagdpanzer IV/70 model exist with the 75mm/70 gun or if "Jagdpanzer IV/70" is just another name for the Pz.Kpfw. IV/70. :confused: :confused: :confused: Hopefully a more knowledgeable friend will help us out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucero1148 Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 Maybe it's an experimental version of the MK IV with a 75mm L70 which never came out? Although how they would fit the gun without massive modifications to the turet design I wouldn't know. All best Patrick 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hpt. Lisse Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 Here you go. Enjoy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 Originally posted by XI_Legion_Nrth_Afr: I ran into this model of the Panzer IV(?) family today and was thoroughly intrigued.*SLAP* Well, now you know it's a Jagdpanzer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conscript Bagger Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 But doesn't at least one iteration of CM's editor list it as "Pz IV/70" or something, as opposed to "Jgdpz"? I remember that causing some confusion before. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK. 11 Posted June 14, 2004 Author Share Posted June 14, 2004 Well, I'm not sure what I was thinking when I posted before checking Achtung Panzer. Thanks for setting me straight... However, CM does list it as Pz.Kpfw. IV/70. :confused: One more question, in the Achtung Panzer Jagdpanzer IV profile it says that General Guderian opposed the Jagdpanzer IV/70 going into mass production on the account of materials being shifted away from production of the standard Pz.Kpfw. IV. It seems to me that a Jagdpanzer IV/70 with the following frontal armor: Front Superstructure: 80/50 Front Upper Hull: 80/45 Front Lower Hull: 50/45 and a 75mm/70 gun would be of more value than the standard Pz.Kpfw. IV Ausf J or any of the later models. It says he was of the opinion that the Sturmgeschütz III Ausf F-G was adequate, however it is clear that the Jagdpanzer IV/70 is far superior to any Sturmgeschütz or Pz.Kpfw. IV. Does anybody know on what basis General Guderian opposed the production of the Jagdpanzer IV/70? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexei Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 No turret, one single MG with less ammo. At that time (beginning of 1944) the Germans could have expected to regain initiative and would have thus needed a true tank rather than this JPz. You may figure out why in CMBB by trying two different QB attacks using first JPz, then Pz At least if the AI does not expose its tanks from the beginning and has decent starting positions for infantry and ATGs... [ June 14, 2004, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: Alexei ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 The Jagdpanzer has better armour and a better gun for AT purposes. It is a very good defensive weapon. Its assault value is much lower as the lack of a turret decreases spotting and reaction to enemy threats. Its anti-personnel capacity is much lower than that of a full tank. Once it is immobilized, it is a sitting duck. Check the achievements of the 653rd heavy TD btn at Kursk. Once the arty had stripped away the infantry, the Elefants were pretty helpless. And the Elefants have better amrour and a better gun compared to the IV/70. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK. 11 Posted June 14, 2004 Author Share Posted June 14, 2004 Hitler ordered the stop of Pz.Kpfw. IV production in August of 1944 (to take place by the end of the year) and the Jagdpanzer IV was to then be brought into full production. With the halt not taking place until the end of the year, Pz.Kpfw. IV's would have stil been in production until after the launch of the Ardennes Offensive. By this time the Pz.Kpfw. V Panther had been in full production since the beginning May 1943, averaging 221 Panthers a month from May 1943-Dec 1943, and 315 Panthers each month in 1944. They also had 274 Tiger Is, and 174 Tiger IIs in inventory at the beginning of the Ardennes Offensive. My point is, after the failure of the Ardennes Offensive the defensive capabilities of the Jagdpanzer IV would have been quite valuable in any theater of war. The Jagdpanzer IV/70 could have also been produced at a rate of 800 :eek: per month as opposed to around 300 Pz.Kpfw. IV! With the Panther beginning to take a major role in the German war effort and with the German forces going on the defensive in all theaters after the Ardennes Offensive the Jagdpanzer IV would be the ideal complement to the Panther/Tiger/remaing Panzer IV's. Am I overestimating the Panthers roll in German forces after 1943? Or am I missing something else? Please enlighten me as to this subject. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 The Jpz IV/70 had a couple substantial drawbacks. For one thing the front end was significantly overstressed due to the big gun. The front roadwheels would actually collapse under the weight of the vehicle(!) so stouter steel forward wheels were soon substituted as a stop-gap. A small annoying tactical problem is the ease with which the driver could impale the tank into the terrain while decending a slope or approaching a rise! I've seen photos of everything from Centurions to Merkavas with their gun tubes buried several feet into the dirt. The loooong barreled jpz IV/70 looks especially succeptible. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 Originally posted by MikeyD: A small annoying tactical problem is the ease with which the driver could impale the tank into the terrain while decending a slope or approaching a rise!Shows just how little you know! Jpz IV/70 was specifically designed so that it could use its gun to swing itself across steep-banked streams, with a bit of spin the driver could make it land on its tracks. Unfortunately, sometimes the gun got stuck in the mud bottom and the Jagdpanzer would be an easy target for Allied gunners, as it would be showing its weak top or underside to them. This is where the name "Guderian's duck" came from (because it was there like a sitting duck). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK. 11 Posted June 14, 2004 Author Share Posted June 14, 2004 Yes I imagine there are problems toting around a gun that HUGE. :eek: :eek: :eek: However if they had made the commintment to produce 800 a month, they could afford a few to get a few stuck and shot up by allied gunners. Despite the problems, it is an attackers nightmare if one gets it into position. By the way, why was it called "Guderian's Duck"? By all accounts, he absolutely hated the Jagdpanzer IV/70 and did not want to produce any at all! :confused: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirocco Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 The question is, could they have actually achieved that production target. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 I remember getting one of these things in the perfect angled hull-down position shooting straight up a looong flat road with woods on either side. Unbeatable! ...though I very nearly got clobbered with artillery raining down on me in the enemy's attempts to dislodge me. The reason for planning 800 vehicles a month probably had something to do with just having the Panther chassis as the only other (expensive) gun platform for the big 75/L70 gun. The more common 75/L48 seems to have found its way onto every chassis in the book, down to donkey carts! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK. 11 Posted June 14, 2004 Author Share Posted June 14, 2004 That is a good question. (from Achtung Panzer)- "The Jagdpanzer IV/70 used the chassis and drive chain of the PzKpfw IV Ausf H. Changes were made, including: the front hull had been modified by replacing the original vertical front plate with two-piece sharp edge nose, the upper nose plate armour was 60mm thick and lower 50mm thick, instead of original 50mm thick vertical plate, in addition, interior layout of components inside the hull was changed to accommodate the new superstructure - the changes included changed location of fuel tanks, ammunition racks and floor escape hatch and elimination of engine that powered the turret along with new heating and ventilation system. The superstructure was made up of sloped plates, that almost doubled the protection. The key part of the technical data is that all parts of the superstructure were made from large interlocking armour plates that were welded together making manufacturing process much easier and faster." Even if the Axis were unable to reach the production goal of 800 vehicles/month the Jagdpanzer IV/70 could have made a significant contribution in the defensive battles that Germany fought. I would imagine that 600-650 Jagdpanzer IV/70's would create far more trouble than 250-300 Pz.Kpfw. IV Ausf H for the Allies. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 German tactical doctrine called for mobile defense with counterattacks to seal a breakthru. Can't do that just with TDs. The JagdPz is great for delaying, but not to regain lost ground. Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conscript Bagger Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Originally posted by Sergei: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MikeyD: A small annoying tactical problem is the ease with which the driver could impale the tank into the terrain while decending a slope or approaching a rise!Shows just how little you know! Jpz IV/70 was specifically designed so that it could use its gun to swing itself across steep-banked streams, with a bit of spin the driver could make it land on its tracks. Unfortunately, sometimes the gun got stuck in the mud bottom and the Jagdpanzer would be an easy target for Allied gunners, as it would be showing its weak top or underside to them. This is where the name "Guderian's duck" came from (because it was there like a sitting duck). </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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