Attacking effectively/destroying SMG squads

[walpurgis nacht]

There is hardly a “one size fits all” way to describe how to attack effectively, because the process is entirely dependent upon an infinite variety of circumstantial variables such as attack/defense force composition, terrain, armor superiority, unit experience, weather, time, etc, etc. But here is a broad set of brushstrokes on doing it well.

**scouting and terrain**

As you scout forward on your attack, your “windows” of vulnerability will be constantly changing. You need to know where your opponent “might” be able to hit you at any given moment. In order to effectively estimate your vulnerable “windows”, you need to know the details of how terrain/cover types restrict LOS.

You need to know, for example, that the LOS in “woods” is 26 meters in June, but by December the LOS is 66 meters. “Pines” will always cover higher, like a building with 2 floors. The light building type “peasant shack” is often small enough that AP rounds go straight through them (so be careful when rushing mech vehicles to “cover” behind them). Generate random maps and play around with units in the scenario editor to learn all the different terrain/cover types, and how they work under different conditions.

**infantry**

The best squads to scout with have at least 1 LMG for the “a” half. The LMG is effective for over-watch duty from 100-200 meters. The ideal squads have 2 LMGs, such as the German “motorized recon”, “panzergrenadiers”, or “panzer recon squads”, or Russian riflemen “H” squads.

Spread your recon squads evenly across the map. Keep them spread out in 100-200 meter scouting lanes. Staying spread out allows you to scout everywhere, it protects you from enemy arty (or it is a waste if he uses it, which you want him to do), and it will minimize your loss when you trigger an infantry ambush. You want to try and keep everyone in command range, but staying away from each other is far more crucial. If he’s free use a CO HQ to aid with command range issues.

Split all of your recon squads. The “b” half is the first to move forward, while the “a” half (with the LMG((s)) ) sits on over-watch. You want the “a” half to instantly open up on whatever fires on the “b” half, so give him a large forward cover arc to make sure he *thinks* to open fire. More importantly, you need the “a” half to act as “eyes” to see what opens up on your “b” half (or you just wasted your scout). So, keep the “a” half to the very front edges of the cover he is in, so he can see as far into the forward terrain as possible (if an enemy squad is dug in 25 meters, when LOS in woods is 26 meters, you will need to have your “a” half in the very forward-most meter of his cover to make sure you can “see” far enough into his cover to spot him when he opens up). Make sure that when you reposition the “a” half, you move him into positions that will best cover what the “b” half is NEXT moving into.

If the “b” half is going to stop forward motion due to enemy fire, you want him to be in an area of cover. So every forward meter in cover, use “move to contact” (use “move to contact + hide” if you are certain your “a” half will see whatever open up). Even if you’re only going through 20m of woods, set your waypoints so that for those 20 meters it is “move to contact”. You do not want to use “move to contact” in the open, unless you know the enemy is a great distance away, because then you’ll just stop in the open and keep taking fire. Best to “advance” for the moral boost, and pray to the local deity. The “a” half follows the “b” almost verbatim, except he is always behind a good distance (just out of effective enemy SMG superiority range, 80-100 meters is ideal). There is no need to move him until he can no longer effectively support the “b” half’s next movement (200 meters maximum). Make sure the “a” half also uses the “move to contact” + “advance” combination. Just because something has not fired yet on your “b” half, doesn’t mean that a whole lot of things won’t at any second.

Your assault infantry should be kept back 200 meters or more from the scouting process. But you should keep them busy going over previously scouted territory with a fine tooth comb, checking all the corners of terrain, and top floors of buildings for hidden enemy tank hunters, sharpshooters, or anything else you might have missed.

Scout everywhere. Even if you do not intend to attack anywhere near, let’s just say, the far right flank, scout to find the enemy positions there anyway. Once you have contact, you want to prevent the enemy from relocating. Your “a” half can make him pay dearly once he realizes you’re “going left” and decides to pull out to support himself elsewhere, (i.e. set a cover arc to mow him down once he runs out the back of his cover).

The most important reason to scout everywhere is to have as many “eyes” around the map as possible to enrich your intel. So never “hide” your “a” half squads (unless you are trying to recover from fatigue or suppression). If you don’t want him to fire give him a tiny cover arc, but keep him up so he can see. You might, for example, see the enemy shifting reserves in his deep back and have a shot at them in the open with your “a” half. This also keeps the enemy from sneaking units around to counter-attack your flank.

**mech**

The most immediate support for your scout squads should be an armored car or light tank (“mech”). They will help to provide the fast and maneuverable MG/HE fire you will need to deal with enemy ambush. Like the “a” half, you want to keep your mech behind “b”, only moving close to terrain that “b” has already scouted. If you have to move your mech behind unscouted cover, try to stay at least 39 meters away from it, as this is the maximum effective range for infantry AT weapons (except schreks and late fausts). Try and time your mech movements to support the forward most vulnerability of the “b” half squad at all times. Get good with the “pause” function to help you time your moves.

With possible enemy AT assets or armor ready to pounce at any second, you want to keep the “windows” in which your mech is vulnerable to a minimum. Always “fast” move from behind one bit of cover to the next. Make sure you have one, clean movement through the vulnerable paths. If you have to turn, always try to make the turns (which take dangerous amounts of time) from behind some cover. Remember, you WANT the enemy to open up with that AT gun (or whatever) to give you intel, but you want to maximize your chances of surviving.

**armor and other over-watch**

Just as your “a” half and mech over-watch “b” in the scouting process, armor, mortars, and HMGs should over-watch all your scouting units on a larger scale.

If you have tough frontal plate armor relative to the date (i.e. Stug IIIG series in ’43), keep your armor hull down in the back, just out of forward LOS (so he cannot see you are there), ready to “hunt” a few meters forward to open up on any AT guns, armor, or HMGs that open up on your scouting group.

If you have inferior frontal plate armor relative to the date (i.e. T34/76 series in ’43), split your tanks up. Keep half hull down in the back, just out of forward LOS. Place the other half in positions to move as far forward on the flanks as safely possible. The idea being that if some enemy armor with uber frontal plate decides to peek over a hill to shoot at you, you will be in better positions to get the necessary flank shot to take him down.

As with “a” half squads, always keep HMGs and HQs spotting for your mortars at the very front of their patches of cover so they can best see an AT gun open up (or whatever).

It can be very useful to split a few squads up to place in various positions of good LOS in your backfield to spot. They can act as “eyes” for potential mortar use. Once an enemy AT gun opens up, if your HQ(s) spotting for your mortars doesn’t have LOS to the gun, perhaps one of your split squads will, so you know to rush the HQ and mortars to that position on the next turn. A split squad spotter can also test out potential positions for your armor in the back. (checking LOS so you know what areas you can cover or be threatened by, should you move a tank there).

**dealing with HMG “sound contacts” that have halted my scouting process**

When you start taking that pesky enemy HMG fire at over 300 meters, it is likely that you’ll get a “sound contact”. The “sound contact” only gives you the basic idea where the HMG is. To help you locate the HMG’s actual position, take a scout that was “stopped” by the HMG while “moving to contact” in cover. Use his LOS tool up by where that “sound contact” was. Wherever you cannot see up by the “sound contact”, he cannot have the HMG. If you get multiple scouting squads stopped, you can cross-reference the LOS beams, and often find out exactly where he is by process of elimination (and a little common sense). “Area target” with your HE of choice to take out the position.

A tricky defender might setup an HMG in a trench, deep in the back on a hill in the open, but not too far away from a tree patch. This is done so that when you receive a “sound contact” from his fire, you mistakenly assume he is in the nearby tree patch. You need to be certain you have found him to avoid wasting loads of HE. The best way to test a “sound contact” position is to “area target” with your own HMG fire or some HE, and then observe the “sound contact” figure. If the fire suppresses the figure, you know you’ve found him within a few meters. If you are using HE watch the specific rounds fall, paying close attention to where they hit when the figure becomes suppressed, which will also guide you more precisely close to his position.

**assaulting smg squads**

You need to overwhelm an enemy SMG squad with devastating fire. Here’s a rough guide to what will do it:

Small arms, at range (no close combat):

-900 total “firepower” points of direct fire will rout a fresh squad in 30 seconds or less.

-350 total “firepower” points of direct fire will rout a fresh squad in 2 turns or less.

-250 total “firepower” points of direct fire will pin a fresh squad solid in 1 turn or less.

-900 total “firepower” points of indirect fire (area target hidden unit) will rout a fresh squad in 2 turns or less.

-450 total “firepower” points of indirect fire (area target hidden unit) will pin a fresh squad solid in 2 turns or less.

High Explosives:

-50mm mortars will pin in 1 turn, will break/rout in 2 full turns (about 30 shots).

-81-82mm mortar will pin with 1-3 direct hits, pin solid with 3-6 direct hits, and rout anywhere from 3-12 direct hits

-blast value = 4, like the 20mmL55 gun, will pin in 20 seconds, rout in 1 turn (if HE fire is close enough to be accurate)

-blast value = 45-50 will pin with 1-3 direct hits, rout in 2-6 direct hits

-blast value= 50 + will pin and/or rout in 1-2 direct hits

Other:

-canister within 60 meters will rout in one shot

-flame will rout with one direct hit

-demo will break or rout with one direct hit

-grenade bundle will pin or break with one direct hit

*This information is based on regular experience German riflemen attacking regular experience Russian SMG squads in summer woods (11-15% exposure), in foxholes, no HQ morale or combat bonus for either side. The numbers are rough guidelines only, and do not account for fanatics, HE direct fire inaccuracy, or plain **** luck. Adjust firepower up or down based on defender’s exposure, unit experience, or morale/combat HQ bonus.

If you were scouting properly, once your scout trips an SMG ambush, you should be able to see at least once enemy unit, and your “a” half + mech should be firing on this position. Next turn, make sure you “area target” either the “a” half squad, or the mech vehicle’s HE/MG on the enemy position, even if you can still see him. This way, if he decides to hide or sneak to a new position (so you lose LOS and cannot direct fire), you still have suppressing fire coming in to pin him down in that position.

Move assaulting infantry and HE variants forward into various positions around that enemy unit and rout him. Be sure you keep your attacking infantry (say German riflemen) out at around 100 meters so you can use your ranged advantage, and avoid effective SMG fire that might pop up to oppose you.

Now that you have a hard hitting assault force forward, you need to find the rest of his positions in the concentration. To help minimize your losses, area target HE and small arms fire on likely positions for a full turn, or 2 if you have the time and resources. Then probe forward, using another “b” half split squad, “advancing” or “assaulting” over the open ground, just to the first meter of cover in the enemy concentration. On the turn you do this, split your over-watch fire up. Area-target suspected positions with half of them, and give cover arcs to the other half to direct fire on whatever opens up. Don’t bother assaulting/probing forward with a full squad at close range, the idea is to avoid the 40 meter (or less) fight against the superior SMGs. Just get a “b” half squad close enough to force the position to reveal itself, and try to hide him. Let your heavy over-watch grouping do the routing.

You can assault or advance on a pinned SMG squad, but pinned squads will still get bursts off, and one burst from an SMG squad can rout your assaulting squad. So it is best to panic, break, or rout before close assaulting to clean up. Probe forward until all the enemy positions are found and rout them. Repeat until concentration is destroyed.

As always be mindful that you spread your assaulting infantry out as much as possible while staying within command range. If the defending SMG squad(s) open fire on one of your squads within 80 meters, and you have another squad within 20 meters of him, he will be suppressed and take casualties as well.

[JasonC]

A useful, constructive post. Thanks for it. I have some quibbles with a few points and suggested revisions or counters to watch for. But there is no question either of my opponents in the SMG thread would do immeasureable better using these tactics, than they did with the ones they actually used.

Reflexive area fire at sound contacts is generally unwise. It is usually better to take the pain from ranged pinning fire, and press infantry forward close enough for a full ID.

It is not necessary to silence every enemy weapon. Infantry's power on the attack comes from their rally "wind". Absorbing enemy ammo with nothing more than delay resulting can also be put up with, if you have time or are advancing elsewhere.

Do not react to men being shot in the open like it is a crisis the requires instantly throwing in every reserve. You may indeed *choose* to silence a particular enemy heavy weapon, despite sound contact intel, only. You do not *need* to. Let it be your choice.

Smart defenders will have their ranged MGs and other stealthy heavy weapons on covered arcs over open ground. Do not expect to locate them via "move to contact in cover". They won't shoot at you in cover. They'd just waste their ammo if they did - low fp at range reduced by cover in addition is ineffective. Expect to be hit in the open bits while using "advance".

When analysing shooting locations, think in the defender's terms, what locations give him open lanes that separate blocks of cover from each other. That is where he wants to be. The other thing to look for is a covered withdrawal route. E.g. a crest, woods deep enough to break LOS, buildings with LOS from upper stories but not lower, or with covered ways of leaving the area after going out the back.

When probing to sound contact locations by fire, do not use large caliber HE early. It is too valuable and too indiscriminate. It can make a defender duck momentarily at 20m, when shots 20m off will not pin or break. Use vehicle MGs, foot HMG teams, and light FLAK. These have high ammo totals and only make the contact duck if you have basically the "right address". When those may someone duck, toss real HE. 75mm HE on a location where MG fire made him duck, will be close enough to break.

There is nothing wrong with the rear LMG half squad drill to give you eyes and to cut up relocation routes over open ground. But do not expect any meaningful suppression of defenders in cover by lone half squads, 80m or more farther than the point. They won't do diddly on their own.

2 LMG types also run through their ammo rapidly. Breaking fire needs to come from a platoon of small arms at medium range, from HE, or from high ammo support weapons. Non breaking fire from squads is wasteful, and your ammo "wind" will not last through a defense in depth if used that way.

Area fire from squads at merely suspected positions is even worse in this regard. If you know someone is there, fine. Note that someone there 2-3 minutes ago and a nationality marker is not "knowing someone is there", now. Otherwise "hose" with high ammo heavy weapons or vehicle MGs (Walpurgis' "mech" are fine for that, incidentally, if available).

The greatest difficulty with recon tactics is maintaining LOS "cohesion" between overwatch and point. This is rarely possible on all avenues of approach. By this I mean, when the point advances into a given field, there are usually places for defenders that can see that field that cannot be seen yet by overwatch 80m back, let alone 200m back. Defenders do not choose locations that can be seen by every location in the attacker's set up zone when they want to blow up a "point".

In my experience, the best overwatch for tactical infantry ambushes is the balance of the point half squad's *platoon*, not the balance of his squad. You need something that can establish LOS to the shooter within a minute.

Again in my experience, a platoon behind the point anywhere from 40 to 80m - much heavier "front" than Walpurgis is recommending - works much better. Yes, ideally a pair of eyes and godlike firepower anywhere would be superior. In practice, the godlike overwatch can't see the ambusher 7-9 times out of 10, and something much farther forward will have to move, and forward, to establish LOS.

For the same reason, *mobile* supporting weapons groups are much more useful than static, distant overwatch. That can come from AFVs, or it can come from infantry heavy weapons groups - built around weapons or company HQs - that are fast enough to keep within 100-200m of the advance. If nothing else will work, send a sniper, to get a pinning ranged weapon that can move. Light mortars also work provided they are used in pairs. Alone they are far too weak to do the job.

My own rules of thumb for adequate firepower are 200 divided by exposure, for small arms, delivered in a single minute to break.

In practice this means fire by less than full platoons, close (~100m), is ineffective against men in cover. They just rally through it, your squad ammo does not. Weaker fire is strictly for high ammo weapons to pin in open ground for delay, and to suppress incoming.

With direct HE you want to deliver 200 absolute blast (to each target). Cover is largely irrelevant if you have the right weapon (mortar vs. trees, direct large HE vs. building).

Indirect HE, the bigger the better. Only the big stuff seriously pays, anyway. For defenders hitting men with poor cover, 105mm-120mm is the minumum to expect anything from. Attackers want 150mm plus. Keep a fire mission a few minutes out, walking ahead of your progress so far. When you encounter a full platoon plus main position, let it count down. For single, point targets just keep walking the aim point to postpone, letting the lighter direct fire stuff do the job.

[ October 25, 2003, 01:16 AM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[walpurgis nacht]

As I prefaced in my original post, “there is hardly a ‘one size fits all’ way to describe how to attack effectively, because the process is entirely dependent upon an infinite variety of circumstantial variables such as attack/defense force composition, terrain, armor superiority, unit experience, weather, time, etc, etc.”.

Shift a detail here or there in this game, and the methods to accomplish your goals will change drastically, which makes it almost impossible to conjure tactical absolutes.

That said, most of your conflicts with the tactical philosophy I described are based on specific circumstances which naturally alter what approach should be use for a successful scouting process.

Originally posted by JasonC:

Reflexive area fire at sound contacts is generally unwise.

Generally, I disagree. The best defense against illness is preventative medicine.

If you have, for example, T34/76 (late model) tanks or KVIs, you can “area target” HE for 30 turns straight and still not run out. You might as well burn as much of it as you can on prep bombardments and sound contacts before you have to deal with enemy armor, and the possibility of losing tanks. Or perhaps you have a T70 which has anywhere from 45-60+ HE shots at blast value =14.

The Germans have to be more conservative due to lower HE loads. But the PzIV series has a fairly nice load. Otherwise, there are cheap HE chuckers like the Wespe, 150mm/105mm/75mm infantry guns, and a variety of other resources.

The main issue here is to apply common sense. If you will likely not have enough HE left to comfortably clean up fortified enemy positions later, then preventative prep bombardments, or area targeting sound contacts, just might be a luxury you cannot afford.

Originally posted by JasonC:

Smart defenders will have their ranged MGs and other stealthy heavy weapons on covered arcs over open ground. Do not expect to locate them via "move to contact in cover". They won't shoot at you in cover. They'd just waste their ammo if they did - low fp at range reduced by cover in addition is ineffective.

With the limitations of the 3 point cover arc it is a rare occasion, “smart defender” or not, to come across an HMG network that ONLY covers open terrain, yet creates a complete “shield” without significant holes to move through created by cover. However, if it is a really open map, and you have no choice but to push through HMG fire in the open at range, you can “advance” platoons in staggered formation through the fire. Maintaining command range with your HQ is obviously critical, but try to keep your squads as far away from each other as you can. As you advance, note which squads receive fire, and where they are when they receive it. If you have a squad that is “pinned” but doesn’t sneak away, even better. Take him at the beginning of the next turn and use his LOS beam to check where the HMG position “might” be. He will never be more than 50 meters away from the sound contact, and will more likely be closer to 25 meters away. Carve out a 100m x 100m patch of terrain around the sound contact (gridded mods help), and “shade in” any places the pinned squad cannot see. If you can cross LOS beams from squads taking fire from the same HMG, but on different sides of the map, you can often quickly “shade in” much of your 100 x 100 grid. What is most useful is when the HMG stops firing long enough for the “sound contact” figure to disappear, but promptly reappears firing on another squad. He will “appear” in a different place every time, and by process of elimination, overlapping your fresh 100 x 100 meter grid with the previous one(s), you can almost certainly find him (think Venn Diagram). Use your HMGs to “area target” potential positions within the grid. If the sound contact figure “ducks”, you have found him within a few meters. As I mentioned in the previous post, if the enemy HMG fire is far enough away to be relatively benign, you can simplify this process by using “move to contact + hide” over open ground to establish LOS beam connections.

There are few circumstances where you cannot accurately locate the HMG position improvising on this method, but of course they exist: If the range is too far and the wind is quick, you might not even get a sound contact. If the HMG is in a trench in the middle of 100s of meters of open ground, he simply may be too difficult to find. In these cases and others, you’ll just have to “deal” until you get closer.

Originally posted by JasonC:

There is nothing wrong with the rear LMG half squad drill to give you eyes and to cut up relocation routes over open ground. But do not expect any meaningful suppression of defenders in cover by lone half squads, 80m or more farther than the point. They won't do diddly on their own.

My original comments on this were within the context of a scouting group doing recon on a flank you did not intend to eventually assault. Once you come up against solid resistance on that flank, you will not need the “punch” to push through it.

Once your “a” half split squad fulfills its roll trying to keep the “b” half alive, it has many ways it can be effective . . . the art is knowing when it will be and when it will not. If the defender’s SMG squads stay still, or are “advancing” a few meters here or there, then you are correct to assume your “a” half’s firepower will not be terribly effective, (unless the defender’s cover is thinner like “scattered trees” in winter or “rough”). But if you catch him “sneaking”, “moving”, or even better “fast” moving in cover, and range permits (100 meters or less) you can easily take off a few heads if you get a clean fire initiative. If you are lucky enough to catch him “fast” moving out the back in the open, you can expect to easily break and likely rout whatever you hit within 100 meters (unit experience plays an important role in determining the effectiveness of this). If the conditions are right, you can position your “a” half squad to beef up the support for a neighboring attack. On a good day, you might even catch a slow moving mortar unit or HMG changing position over open ground a few hundred meters behind enemy lines.

Just sit tight and wait for the enemy to make a mistake, which he is certain to do. Even if the defender decides not to move anything, you still “win” because you prevent him from relocating his SMG squads (which need to be literally ON something to be useful).

Originally posted by JasonC:

2 LMG types also run through their ammo rapidly.

Yes, this can be a problem. But in general, you won’t need a lot of ammo to hold a low activity flank static. You need just enough to punch him if he relocates or tries to counter-attack. You will rarely be in a position to help support an attack on a neighboring position.

Should he be so lucky to survive the scouting process, I have found it useful to think of the “b” half squad as ammo storage for the “a” half’s LMG(s). Once you have exhausted the ammo from your “a” half squad, attempt to rejoin with whatever is left of the “b” half, and get more LMG for your money.

Originally posted by JasonC:

In my experience, the best overwatch for tactical infantry ambushes is the balance of the point half squad's *platoon*, not the balance of his squad. You need something that can establish LOS to the shooter within a minute.

In my example the scouting platoons had close support from “mech”. If used correctly “mech” will establish LOS to the shooter in less than one minute, and you can avoid the potential loss/injury of multiple squads when you trigger an ambush. If you intend to push through the ambush, the mech vehicle’s MG combined with the firepower from half squad “a” will prevent him from immediately changing position. This gives you “safe” time to react, as you move up the rest of the platoon or your assaulting infantry to deal with it from the most ideal positions.

Of course using a full platoon for immediate support in the scouting process will work, along with many other possibilities.

A good player is flexible, and knows how to combine the “arms” of whatever hand he his dealt to best accomplish a given task. There are so many ways to do it “right”. . . . almost as many as there are “wrong”. That is what makes the game so incredible.

[ October 25, 2003, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Night ]

[JasonC]

Mostly sensible comments. You said "it is a rare occasion, “smart defender” or not, to come across an HMG network that ONLY covers open terrain, yet creates a complete “shield” without significant holes". Here I just disagree.

If defenders are using their MGs on wide arcs it is correct, but that is just not the right way to use MGs for a ranged pinning screen. Long, narrow arcs into exclusively open ground are the proper way. MGs should not include any large body of cover within their long covered arc. Indeed, they should let any target 20m or more into the open before encountering a fire lane.

This need not create holes, for two reasons. One, you cross the lanes. Two, you can change them from turn to turn, as you see the enemy move. (Not extending all the way to the edge of fields helps with this - you have "play").

Also, you do not need to keep out every half squad; in fact, you often want to let the first one through a given field, and lengthen or switch the arc to "close the door" only after the point has past.

If players are taking their MGs, setting them up in forward positions with wide LOS, giving them 120-180 degree, 500m covered arcs, and then just leaving them alone, they are using their MGs poorly. You draw fire from too many locations, are too easy to spot, are too close, shoot wastefully into cover, etc.

Instead you want multiple keyholed lanes between distant bodies of cover. At 300-500m, even a 15-30 degree fan covers a significant area of ground. Right facing and left facing should alternate to cross lanes behind particular bodies of cover, to deny access to them. Bodies of cover you can't deny access to this way should be mined, TRPed, sighted for a direct fire HE weapon (field gun or mortar), or occupied by defending infantry.

You don't need to watch every lane every turn - use your OP intel to watch one the enemy is approaching. You should be managing your MG fire scheme every turn, not leaving it as initially set up. Each MG has to decide whether to fire, at which lane, whether to relocate, which enemy to "lead" with a firelane - every turn.

On locating MGs, it is not always easy to tell from one sound contact to the next whether it was one MG or two. LMGs for sound deception are a good idea on defense. This works particularly well for the Germans.

On area fire, it was area fire by squad infantry that I particular discourage as wasteful of ammo. With HE it depends on the unit. Most are ammo limited. A Russian 50mm mortar, or very high HE load tanks like the T-34, are exceptions, for half their load or so. Even those types will go farther if you first locate by making them duck with MGs or light Flak.

In my fight with Gaylord, his 82mm mortar and his 76mm infantry gun both ran out of HE before breaking a single MG. He had full ID on one, anyway, later and would easily have KOed it if he had any left. He did not locate them as well as he could. But he would have been much better off probing sound contacts with his HMGs and 25mm AA piece than with these.

[BulletRat]

Oh cmon, stop gasbagging on and have a game - you 2 doing battle would be nothing short of spectacular I think.

AARs...

Downloadable turns...

/continues dreaming...

Hey, we gotta keep ourselves occupied with stuff until CM:AK arrives!

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by BulletRat:

Oh cmon, stop gasbagging on and have a game - you 2 doing battle would be nothing short of spectacular I think.

Yes well, wouldn't it be nice. My challenge to Jason remains active.

[ October 25, 2003, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Night ]

[GreenAsJade]

Originally posted by Walpurgis Night:

Hello BulletRat. This is "faust" from over at CMHQ.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BulletRat:

Oh cmon, stop gasbagging on and have a game - you 2 doing battle would be nothing short of spectacular I think.

... My challenge to Jason remains active. </font>

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by JasonC: Mostly sensible comments. You said "it is a rare occasion, “smart defender” or not, to come across an HMG network that ONLY covers open terrain, yet creates a complete “shield” without significant holes". Here I just disagree.

In general what you said about using HMGs is the correct tactical absolute, but it is often too ideal when it comes to practice. The success or failure of an HMG position, doing as you suggest, is entirely dependent upon the terrain. In a run-of-the-mill QB map (medium size/trees/hills, rural), it is a virtual certainty that the a good attacker will easily get close enough for a full ID of your HMG position, before he can open fire on anything. My point was that you rarely come across an HMG network under such general conditions that can effectively delay the attacker if you are too exclusive with your fire lanes. Unless, that is, you have an HMG heavy force composition, or the terrain is “open” enough.

Originally posted by JasonC: On locating MGs, it is not always easy to tell from one sound contact to the next whether it was one MG or two. LMGs for sound deception are a good idea on defense. This works particularly well for the Germans. .

This is a good tactic, I agree. But like anything there are holes in it.

Even the German MG42 LMG is not terribly effective at over 250 meters, so the defending LMG is not likely to fire at ranges far beyond that. Any enemy position under 300 meters away from you is threatened by the possibility of his actual position being identified. Ergo, you will likely be able to spot the LMG position in a turn or 2 if your scouting process is solid. Look carefully at the gun placement and apply common sense . . . is he in a position better suited to support close range or far? A good attacker can also often distinguish the LMG from the HMG by the effectiveness of the fire at the given range.

[Panzer76]

Yeah JasonC, fight him, that would be fun.

We all know that you have a wealth of knowledge, but it would be nice to see you take on a skilled opponent as I know WN is, to see if you can manage to transform your thesis into something actual meaningful on the battlefield, against someone who knows what he is doing (no disrespect to Dorosh or GF ).

[Redwolf]

Another interesting thing to test would be an environment where the HMGs don't cannot be the backbone of the defense.

I am thinking of deeply cut in terrain, low visibility or dense woods. Or all of the above

[Pud]

Does anyone else think the "seeing a sound contact duck for cover from area fire means your close" a bit silly or gamey. How can "sound" be seen to duck???

Its a good trick though, something I must remember.

[edited - grammar]

[ October 31, 2003, 03:28 AM: Message edited by: Pud ]

[Wisbech_lad]

"Fire power is everything," said the British commander at Bardia, "and to attain this no more personnel should be used than is absolutely necessary. In modern warfare, under certain circumstances a man with a bayonet or a hand grenade is of the greatest value, but a man with only a rifle is frequently a hindrance rather than a help. What is required is automatic weapons -- the more the better -- but it should be borne in mind that except in close-up work, personnel should be reduced to the absolute minimum. It is infinitely better to use rifle personnel to provide the attackers with covering fire than to use an unnecessarily large number of men in the attack itself. Men armed with tommy guns and grenades are the backbone of an attack, while the riflemen provide the covering fire."

Translated into CMBB:

Get the gamey Recon C battalion. It's cheaper than a company, and gives you another HQ for support weapons... 62 ammo points means you can plink away all day, especially useful for draining German 2 LMG sections of ammo in medium/ long scenarios. 11 men squads means they are quite effective at grenade range too, but the main job is to fix enemy positions and harrass them.

Then use SMG squads, backed up by HE chuckers of choice/ support fire from Recon C and HMGs for close assault. Don't forget a short covered arc, or they will only be useful for one assault.

[Frunze]

I could serve as your opponent if you want to give a demonstration of your methods of taking apart a SMG-based defense, Walpurgis Night. I'm a pretty good player, at least I've done well in RoW III.

Whatever parameters you consider fair would be fine. I'd only ask that it be a small battle. And I usually prefer to play Soviets, if that's OK with you.

Redwolf's suggestion, of terrain too close to allow much HMG dependence, would also be fine with me.

[KursruK]

Nice ideas and explanations W.N. These things are already helping my attack.

[ October 31, 2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: KursruK ]

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Frunze:

I could serve as your opponent if you want to give a demonstration of your methods of taking apart a SMG-based defense, Walpurgis Night. I'm a pretty good player, at least I've done well in RoW III.

Whatever parameters you consider fair would be fine. I'd only ask that it be a small battle. And I usually prefer to play Soviets, if that's OK with you.

Redwolf's suggestion, of terrain too close to allow much HMG dependence, would also be fine with me.

I would be happy to play a small one. How about:

June '41, Axis attack, 300 points, unrestricted picks, medium experience, standard rarity, village, heavy trees, gentle slopes, 29+ turns, clear, mid day, random wind ?

This should be a reasonably balanced map within the context of a thicker terrain setting. Post any tweeks you might like in this setup, and I'll send you a pbem.

One thing though, don't necessarily expect any of the tactics I have already written about here. My point to Jason was that there are many ways to get the job done, not one simple tactical absolute.

[Frunze]

OK, the game is underway. The parameters have been renegotiated a bit - it's 400 pts, and my force is infanty-only...I think the attackers are combined-arms. A common matchup, historically.

The map's got plenty of woods, some trees, and some small light buildings. Also plenty of open space, a bit more than you might expect with the "heavy" trees setting. (More open than you'd get in heavy-trees rural, for example.)

The map is fairly flat, with a few minor dips and rises. There's a road running right down the middle, with a few houses on either side close to my end. One large flag and one small one, on either side of the road.

W.N. should have some possibility to use longer-range weapons.

[ November 02, 2003, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Frunze ]

[GreenAsJade]

Originally posted by Walpurgis Night:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JasonC: On locating MGs, it is not always easy to tell from one sound contact to the next whether it was one MG or two. LMGs for sound deception are a good idea on defense. This works particularly well for the Germans. .

This is a good tactic, I agree. But like anything there are holes in it.

</font>

[Frunze]

Webpage? Well, if someone will host screenshots, I could post 'em here...I took one of the map, so far.

[walpurgis nacht]

Game with Frunze is well underway. His turns are ssslllooowwwww, so it will be a bit before it is completed. Then switch sides, same map and setup.

Once we're finished we can then contribute something meaningful here based on the results of the tactics employed.

The setup is 400 points, June '41, Axis/Combined Arms attack vs Russian/Infantry (SMG) defense. Village + heavy trees + gentle slopes.

[KursruK]

Originally posted by Walpurgis Night:

The setup is 400 points, June '41, Axis/Combined Arms attack vs Russian/Infantry (SMG) defense. Village + heavy trees + gentle slopes.

How is this game coming? I'm interested in how success there was in beating SMG squads in combined arms setup with heavy trees like this. It sounds impossible to me and I am not newbie.

Main problem I see is russian infantries is so much cheaper than german, as well as more powerful. So how is this?

[walpurgis nacht]

The result of the game with Frunze is 76-24, major victory for the axis. In terms of tactics, it’s hard to explain how it all went without pointing out specifics using the map as a reference. I would post the final turn, or map for download if someone knows how to do it.

Frunze’s force consisted of: 1 SMG coy, 3 xLMG teams, 3 x50mm mortars, 1 45mm AT gun, 1 76mm AT gun, 1 AT minefield. Everything “green”

My force consisted of: 2 pzIIs, 3 psw223s, 1 Company security troops (3 x 50mm mortars), 2 LMGS, 3 1918 infantry guns.

In general, I simply stuck to the tactical approach I described above, almost verbatim. The only difference I can think to describe is, since it was “combined arms” for the axis, I had to be more conservative with my armored support, and so I didn’t use my mech in the scouting process, replacing that immediate overwatch support with fire from my scouting squad’s platoon.

I can however, describe what was problematic in the defense. Again, an SMG defense under these circumstances is a very tough nut to crack, and if defended correctly this map would be almost impossible to break.

Frunze created a static line defense, around the flags, in the very back of the map. The problem with a static line is that it allows the attacker to bring all of his supporting firepower to bear efficiently. Better would have been defense in depth, forcing the attacker to constantly shift supporting firepower, so he can never bring his full might to bear. The way to do this well is intricate enough that it probably deserves its own thread.

Green troops were a mistake. If the attacker refuses to commit any significant force at close range, you need at least “regulars” to maintain a robust enough stance that you can be somewhat effective under fire. A fallback defense is also out of the question with green troops, who need to be able to move around regardless of a minor bruise here or there.

Otherwise, the method of attack I describe worked soundly. I got close enough to see what was there, with the least amount possible. Routing with support fire.

Thanks for the game Frunze.

[BulletRat]

Bah JasonC, don't be a softcock and take the challenge.

What's the worst that can happen - you'll lose?

[Redwolf]

Anybody would like to play a scanerio along these lines, but no city, so no heavy weapons fire down the streets? Could be either heavy woods or bad weather.

CMAK only. I didn't look but they probably have German SMG squads. I want to play on a pre-made map, just the heavy woods Quickbattle setting is not good enough IMHO.

[manchildstein (ii)]

i've got a scenario in wooded terrain which has an smg company as the core of a russian force... it's cmbb but you can check it out at:

http://www.the-proving-grounds.com/scenario_details_link.html?sku=167

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by redwolf:

Anybody would like to play a scanerio along these lines, but no city, so no heavy weapons fire down the streets? Could be either heavy woods or bad weather.

CMAK only. I didn't look but they probably have German SMG squads. I want to play on a pre-made map, just the heavy woods Quickbattle setting is not good enough IMHO.

Alright Redwolf, I'm in. I still have the beta version of AK, but I think it's all compatible.