African-way small towns

[theike]

Since everybody is doing requests for the oncomming africa game, im to do my part here...

I would love to be abble to build towns with houses laying side by side more.

Now i can only do that with large buildings and medium once (if posed towards ore away from eachother).

But small buildings dont just allways lay in open field.

Especialy in North Africa where the dence little towns with tiny streets and ongoing walls of houses besides it, make for a brilliant maze.

Mind u there are almost no large buildings in those little towns. The only buildings to be called 'european'large are the few pallaces and moskee's, (and most moskee's are to be better called small also)

We wont be abble at all to build a little bit of an accurate north african town, if small buildings cant toutch and lay besides eachother AND the streets...

But hmmm. Its a difficult request surely.

One would have to make new scenario block's with maybe 2 or even 4 houses on a square.

Wont be happening, will it?

Old bazaar centre's and villages in a whole were often impossible for thanks to enter. Its narrow streets were only fought by men.

How do we keep tanks out?

[ July 07, 2003, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: theike ]

[MikeyD]

Maybe if they brought back 'bocage' in the form of tall stone walls that tanks can't cross. The buildings would still be spaced the same but we'd be able to tie-up a cluster of buildings into one neat package behind the walls.

[Lars]

Perhaps a one level factory tile?

[theike]

yeah man, things like that.

Maybe wheat is to be made into some street stairs.

))) can be taken by tanks but slower then normal streets, and some smart modder might make it look like there is a real elevating rise to it, also due to the stretch on the elevated ground its layed out on...

Also somebody could make a mod for the large buildings, both, to make them look like more little'er once. (it can be done i guess)

Yeah high walls would be most welcome, even in cmbb i think, towns dont look the same with all those low brick wallie's around...what the heck are they doing there? real short neighbours might get their nosy sights blocked, but thats about all. (and we all know that that short a people dont make it into the army, even in war time, as so noticably expressed by the game)

(.....)

Just:...im not that modder,

[ July 08, 2003, 06:24 AM: Message edited by: theike ]

[Ales Dvorak]

Originally posted by theike:

I would love to be abble to build towns with houses laying side by side more.

Maybe by spliting large buildings into 4/4 without top floor? :eek:

[Michael Emrys]

How common were towns in North Africa that were surrounded by walls? I don't recall any outside of the cities large enough to have a casbah. And if you count those, you are already into urban combat, which there wasn't much of in NA.

Italy of course did see a fair amount of urban combat, and there were villas and such with high walls. But it seems to me that entire cities, or even large portions of same enclosed by a wall were rare.

Can anybody provide definite information?

Michael

[Alfatwosix]

Found some interresting information on the fighting in North Africa by the Polish "Carpathian" Brigade, complete with maps and other usefull info .. maybe something for you scenario makers to look at.

http://www.kki.krakow.pl/piojar/brygad/brygad/brygad.html

The main page is in Polish, but there is an English version on Palestine & Egypt and about Tobruk.

[theike]

Its true about the walls being mid-evil citywalls.

They didnt have those alot...but the way they close-build houses sure made for a semi wall itself, and walls were build all around from back to front and inbetween them. I mean houses werent just a all square building, there was alot of side-building (walls) to it, making clusters together.

(And i guess that does also apply on the Italian villages. Espescialy the ones in the south)

[ July 08, 2003, 06:27 AM: Message edited by: theike ]

[Louie the Toad]

Back in the 80s I did a lot of research on North Africa as a Game Master for miniature wargaming.

I don't recall reading about town/street fighting. It must have happened, but it was not the focus at all.

Maybe the operational aspect of the battles, which emphasized surrounding, cutting off the enemy de-emphasized holding on to towns.

Tobruk would be the exception.

More of a question... than an answer... Toad

[SFJaykey]

How about a new tile that depicted a 20m-square maze of small, 1-story high, stone walled rooms and courtyards, typical in the images I have seen of North African towns? Its effects on gameplay would be closer to a woods tile than a small heavy building. Place a few next to each other and I think you have the effect Theike is looking for.

[Chelt]

More than anything else, I'd like to see small houses that touch one another - separate houses, walls between, that behave exactly like large heavy buildings, only one-sixth the size.

This is Europe, after all. And attached houses are the rule throughout most of the continent.

I offer an example from North Africa:

(from WWII Vehicles)

And from Italy:

(from

tuscany-apartments.com )

Streets of this sort are common throughout Western and Southern Europe - certainly in France, Italy, and the Netherlands. (And in the UK, should anyone care to model Op Sealion.) One might expect to find a mixture of detached and attached houses in the usual village, with the densest settlement toward the center. I'm not talking about large communities here - a hamlet of a dozen houses can run along a single road without a gap between walls.

Movement in this environment differs profoundly from movement in a village with detached houses. No more can tanks scurry to cover between two houses, except along the odd side road; no more can troops bring the adjacent house under fire.

Plus, all these neat rows of detached houses along roads just look wrong. It's so suburban American.

David

[theike]

I hear u, i hear u, brother....))

for italian villages i have some examples, i remember a nothern african town also, couldnt find it jet. (but then again, i dont know how to post pics, so i havent looked all to well)

But u are so right by saying that the fighting would be so differend.

And yes looks of cmbb lack to model true villages and towns, it does all look too much like pure open rural, ore pure closed center city.

Maybe northern africa didnt have that much battle's set around and in towns, but this in a whole has been, for me, a major disappointment to cmbb. There was close to no improvement to the scenario designer after cmbo. Well, there was , but there could have been more...

It could do so much better.

A few more icons, a few more bmp's, and the world might open up to us so much more.

More different tanks and units are allways welcome, but more icons to build maps are just as important, if not even more so. (whoops; there i said it))))

Na, its not that big a deal... :cool:

Im pretty happy with the game

Really am...

Maybe in due time, in due time....

[ July 08, 2003, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: theike ]

[Ales Dvorak]

Originally posted by Trap One:

... only one-sixth the size.This is Europe, after all

Ahmmmm, 3,33m?

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Ales Dvorak:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Trap One:

... only one-sixth the size.This is Europe, after all

Ahmmmm, 3,33m? </font>

[Ales Dvorak]

Originally posted by Scarhead:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ales Dvorak:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Trap One:

... only one-sixth the size.This is Europe, after all

Ahmmmm, 3,33m? </font>

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Ales Dvorak:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scarhead:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ales Dvorak:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Trap One:

... only one-sixth the size.This is Europe, after all

Ahmmmm, 3,33m? </font>

[Björn Eriksson]

Will it be possible for infantry to fire from the roofs of buildings in CMAK? Almost every picture I've seen of mediterranean and north african villages have buildings with flat roofs.

It would be extremely cool if you could move troops between the roofs of adjacent buildings, ninja style

[Ales Dvorak]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Only if they are good friends. And use deodorants.

[SFJaykey]

Originally posted by Trap One:

More than anything else, I'd like to see small houses that touch one another - separate houses, walls between, that behave exactly like large heavy buildings, only one-sixth the size.

This is Europe, after all. And attached houses are the rule throughout most of the continent.

I offer an example from North Africa:

(from WWII Vehicles)

Based on this example photo, which is more or less what I had in mind, doesn't anybody like the idea of treating this environment with a terrain tile, rather than discrete buildings? Compared to woods, it would block LOS more effectively, provide better cover and concealment, fewer airbursts, and slower movement. The base could be dusty tan with some flagstones, topped by doodads resembling masonry walls and huts.

By using terrain tiles, when a few are linked together you get the continuous-block effect as in the photo. In a large village setting a few large heavy buildings could be mixed in to provided elevated firing positions. There would be "alleys" at the sides of the heavy buildings but that would be semi-realistic, no?

Admittedly this is a stopgap: hopefully CMX2 will treat this type of village environment more realistically but this seems a workable, if abstracted, solution for CMAK.

[theike]

sorry i tried to post an image.

But it didnt work.

[ July 16, 2003, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: theike ]