Effects of Infantry casualties on individual Squads

[Krautman]

Just yesterday, i played the "Cemetery Hill" Scenario from the CMBB CD. After a tough and thrilling fight, i (germans) achieved a 72% victory (just showing off here. That's quite an achievement concerning my rather unspectacular CM skills) by finally taking the church. Those units that did arrive there first-the recon platoons-had heavy losses, two squads were down to one man ,the others had 2-4 left. The following Pionier platoon suffered maybe 30-40% casualties.

I wondered whether an infantry squad taking such heavy losses would continue fighting or rather try caring for the wounded, stopping its advance. A squad in a fixed position could maybe do both, rendering first aid and keeping up the fire. An advancing squad, however, could leave one or two wounded behind for the following medics. But when 7 out of eight men are hit? Don't get me wrong, i'm totally fine with the way CM simulates the infantry, just wanted to ask as i saw the last man of a recon squad storming the church on his own.

[securityguard]

The level of abstraction in CM is really huge, and while it works it's also one of its downfalls. Casualties in CM can range from wounded, killed, lost in action or even more (imagination comes in handy when thinking of ways a soldier could be out of fighting).

When squads get down to one or two men left, but are still in HQ command, then you have to assume they're still willing to fight under specific orders from HQ. It's when they lose HQ command is when I assume that they're on their own. Their delay can be utterly massive - can be minutes before they actually move. You can also imagine, even under HQ command, that they're doing things during the delay such as scavanging ammo or trying to see if anyone is alive, things like that.

Squads with one or two dudes left fighting it out is bravery though, and seems rare in CM. Usually by that time they're routed or routing. In Operations squads with less than 3/4 is discarded for obvious reasons. It is seriously rare for one person to fight on his own but it can happen, but usually boils down to self defense due to delays and morale issues.

This is how I see it anyways, I'm sure someone can explain / correct me better.

[MikeyD]

72% victory in 'Cemetary Hill'? That IS worthy of bragging rights! I may have once shorted out my keyboard weeping in frustration over that scenario

There's a decent chance in the heat of battle the last remaining squad member may not realise his plight for some time. Sure, none of his buddies can bee seen or heard but unless they're strewn across an open field in front of him the sole survivor may think his fellows are just behind him crawling along or keeping under cover. How many times have you been shopping in a mall and realised you've lost your companion? Did she just duck out of sight? Can she see me but I can't see her? Or maybe she fell under that road paving machinery just outside the mall entrance!

[llama]

A '72% victory in Cemetary Hill'! Was that with 'Stick to Scenario Setup' and Extreme FOW? If so you not only get bragging rights but should beable to walk on water and win the national lottery at will - well at least be rated as one of the top CMBB players of all time - well you are definately a better player than me anyway.

[Holman]

You can also assume that some of those "casualties" ARE the men who have quit fighting in order to care for their wounded comrades. So your squad with one effective could still conceivably be (say) six living men: one shooting, three wounded, and two caring for the three.

[Krautman]

The settings were free AI setup and extreme FOW, no AI bonuses of any kind. This was not my first try. The first two times, the AI quickly took out most of my AFVs, and i gave up. The third try was different: My infantry and vehicles were standing ready to advance through the bushes at the far right (all directions from attacker's perspective) corner of the map. Quickly, the SPW 251/10 was shot by a russian atg hidden in the forest ahead of the bushes. The other vehicles shot the atg down and started their advance, sighting a pillbox among the first row of houses. The pillbox was taken out by cmbb's most feared bunker-killer gun, the 20mm l/55, by firing slit penetration within 30 secs. Then the infantry started their advance, covered by the two hmg and the 75mm IG (placed in the left corner of the scattered trees), and were immediately taken under fire by infantry squads hidden in the forest (where the atg was) and mg fire from the heavy buildings. The mot. recon units advanced first, followed by the pionier platoon. My support units and vehicles managed to suppress the defenders more or less, so that the infantry could reach the forest and the first house without too heavy casualties (that means, only two squads were already down to 2 men). Then the infantry continued their advance under heavy fire through the scattered trees alongside the road. At this point, the AI started moving its infantry squads from the left corner of the village to the right, to the side from which i was attacking(I think the AI is reasonably intelligent, it reacts to the situation at hand. Very well done, imho.). The HMGs and the IG kept the enemy maxim(s?) in the heavy building and the tall building down and the PSWs offered good supporting fire, although they were already running out of mg ammo. From the time my first infantry reached the trenches, thing became truly nasty: More and more enemy infantry showed up, a squad trying to storm the heavy building a maxim was in ran into a minefield, and the other atg-close to the church, on its left side-started blasting my infantry. In addition, the other pillbox, situated in the forest surrounding the cemetery, close to the map's edge, spotted a recon squad and opened fire. I couldn't get my PSWs in a good position to kill it, due to the atg, and the infantry couldn't reach it, because the forest was full of ivan. So- i stormed the church. A single remaining rifleman took the lead and was shot down by a squad hidden inside. However, two pionier squads were right behind him. A well-aimed explosive charge blew the ivan out! The pionier squads seized the church and were also able to toss a little present at the last atg (which was positioned, as said above, very close to the church). After that triumphant round, i tried to rush another pionier squad through the forest behind the church to take out that last pillbox. However, they were caught unaware by a hidden russian recon b squad that killed them in seconds. The game ended because both sides agreed on a ceasefire. All units were low on ammo, besides the hmgs, who were at least three times jammed both at the same time. Both russians and germans had heavy losses, but i controlled the victory flag and had taken several russians as prisoners.

After all, that was a very tough but also enjoyable scenario, that imho simulates the enormous difficulties the germans already had during the first months of barbarossa. The AI is a good defender, i think.

[Agua]

Originally posted by Krautman:

The settings were free AI setup

Tarnished achievement. Do it against the default scenario setup, then you can brag.

[Krautman]

I read this thread where one guy said he could achieve total victories in that scen on a regular basis, so i thought 72% wasn't that much... the flag gives you so many victory points that casualties are not that important. But do it again with scen default?

Can do!

Now you taunted me, Agua... i'll take up the challenge and try again, friday or saturday. Maybe i was pretty lucky before. What would be a decent victory percentage with default setup then? (So i know if i can REALLY brag, and back off if my results are worse...)If you're interested, i'll post my result here again, and i'll be honest.

Ceterum censeo collis sepulcreti delendum esse.

[Andrew H.]

Originally posted by Krautman:

[snip[

Now you taunted me, Agua... i'll take up the challenge and try again, friday or saturday. Maybe i was pretty lucky before. What would be a decent victory percentage with default setup then? (So i know if i can REALLY brag, and back off if my results are worse...)If you're interested, i'll post my result here again, and i'll be honest.

Ceterum censeo collis sepulcreti delendum esse.

That's the best scenario ever!

Tactical defeat is a pretty good score using the default setup.

[Dschugaschwili]

So I have the right to brag about my 50-50 draw with extreme FOW and default setup, right?

Dschugaschwili

[llama]

Originally posted by Krautman:

The settings were free AI setup

Sorry, Old Thing, but you don't get bragging rights, or indeed anything else, for that. Gosh, even I have won comfortably when the AI is free to make a dog's breakfast of the defence set-up.

Good luck with your attempt this weekend - anything above a tactical defeat and you are doing well.

Cheers

[HeinzBaby]

Bah!

I managed a MAJOR Defeat!

That Dang 45mm in the tall pines fired just TWO shots, one each at a psw222 , both BLEW APART causing the remaining 222 and 251/10 to bail!! -aannd suppressing most of my Pioneers!!

2 shots wipes out 4 vehicles..

They say luck is only 50%

just TWO shots...@#$%!

[eyepilot]

I must say that is a particularily hard scenario!

I left my support mg's in the forest as well as my arty to supress the trenches and got all my infantry into position at the bottom of the road by turn 12 and thought "no problem now". I just couldn't seem to advance my inf. up the road without getting sliced apart.A couple of squads got up to the road block but that was it.For some reason my 75mm refused to lay in any smoke!?! That really foiled my advance. Can anyone tell me why?I also had 2 psw222's at the beginning of my advance but ended up with a major defeat! Just too much Ivan in that one!