Kanonier Reichmann Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 I'm mentioning this "bug" in the (probably forlorn) hope that BFC may address it with just one further final patch to CMBB to correct a rather disturbing problem. The problem lies in an attacker/defender scenario or QB where certain fortifications purchased by the defender equates to instant victory points to the attacker. The fortifications that cause the problem are any form of minefield, wire, roadblocks and TRP's so that once purchased, the cost to the defender in purchasing them are automatically credited to the attacker as casualty V.P.'s. If you don't believe me, try it for yourself. Chose a low point value, limited turns attack/defend style QB but on a pre-designed map where there is no way possible for the attacking forces to reach the defenders side of the map due to a giant impassable cliff face through the middle of the map (if you like). Only allow 1 small V.P. for the defender to defend and then purchase over 100 points worth of wire, TRP's, minefields etc. If you're playing as the defender hide all your troops so that there's no chance of them firing at anything and ensure the attackers forces have no F.O.'s or anything then simply wait until the turns expire. You'll notice right from the outset that the defenders starting winniing percentage is looking sick before a shot has been fired. It will stay that way throughout the game and when you see the "victory" screen you'll see that you've actually lost as the defender due to the so called casualties your side has already suffered right from the start. My question is, should this be considered a reasonable situation perhaps based on the defender already having the advantage of hidden positions etc? If it's considered far less than desirable shouldn't it be reasonable to have a patch to fix this problem and not make it a double whammy for purchasing perfectly useful and desirable fortifications for a proper defensive position? Regards Jim R. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 Just piggybacking another victory point bug here: killed member in vehicle crews get victory points to the other side only when at least one crewmember made it out alife, that means a crew marker ever appears on the map. Of the crew never makes it out at all, i.e. in a catastrophic explosion, then no victory points are awarded for the crew although all are casulties. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 I reported this bug to BTS. They thought it had something to do with splitting squads. In any case, they said they will look into it after CMAK is released. I saw the same as you. Small force hiding virtually the whole game, attacker slogging through snow. I win 87-13 with no casualties. I had lots of wire, trenches, mines. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runyan99 Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Fairly serious bug. I hope they fix it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salkin Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 I like mines . //Salkin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Huh. That explains the weird result I had in a real game with JDS a couple of months ago. The scenaro was a recon probe, and it played out basically the way your test scen is described. There was some firing, but only one cas (suffered by the nominal attacker). In the end, it was noted as a "victory" for the attacker (though the in-game results were irrelevant in this particular case). The defender had some roadblocks and wire - and maybe some mines. Well, that puzzle is solved, but another replaces it Regards JonS 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tar Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 I noticed a similar situation in a quick battle. Does anyone know if it is QB-specific or does it affect regular scenarios as well? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haohmaru Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Very interesting. I always thought that the instant drop in gl. morale at the beginning was due to initial starting casualties. Was this bug ever foun in CMBO? I certainly never noticed it, and so a bit disturbing if it's only just crept its way in in CMBB. This game has been out for one year, why no fix for this problem? Haoh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardaukar Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 If I recall correctly from other forum , the bug was introduced in 1.03 and was not present in 1.02. And I doubt it has anything to do with split squads, at least it's present with no split squads around. Cheers, M.S. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 But the bug was probably introduced when the split squads bug was fixed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted November 19, 2003 Author Share Posted November 19, 2003 You might be right redwolf. The fact remains that this appears to be quite a severe problem which I feel needs to be addressed if we're having to hold out for approximately 2 years before the all dancing, all singing version of Combat Mission CMx2 is developed. I'm really hoping for one final patch to be released on CMBB before all BFC's resources are solely devoted to the new incarnation of the Combat Mission engine. Regards Jim R. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Did anyone mail Madmatt and got a response? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 yes 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Thanks for mentioning it: that's really serious. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 You might want to test whether the attacker gets VP for units that exit the map as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Just tested it. It's true. Every point you spend on mines, barbed wire, trps, trenches: stuff like that, is given to the other side as a casualty point, in the casualty point tally This doesn't happen though with bunkers and pillboxes. It doesn't happen with troops that exit the map either, although exiting still causes a global morale plunge, which is wrong, especially in combination with the autosurrender rule. (it means you can't conduct a fighting retreat) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Originally posted by tar: I noticed a similar situation in a quick battle. Does anyone know if it is QB-specific or does it affect regular scenarios as well? I just checked that. It affects scenarios as well. All CMBB scenarios with fortifications (apart from pillboxes/bunkers) are now unbalanced. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Originally posted by CMplayer: It doesn't happen with troops that exit the map either, although exiting still causes a global morale plunge, which is wrong, especially in combination with the autosurrender rule. (it means you can't conduct a fighting retreat) What? :eek: Is there any hope to get that morale drop on intact exit feature removed? With exit scenarios it is just plain wrong, but even in normal scenarios I want to move stuff I consider too fragile off the map. In fact, I think a command who gets his trucks off the map in a defense scenario where he doesn't need on-map transport should rather be rewarded than penalized. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 By the way, the casualties from fortifications do not show up as reduced global morale. They also do not show up as casulaties suffered (in the top half of the AAR screen) They only show up in the point tally, for casualties. About exiting causing plunge of global morale, I don't know if this is the case if there's an exit zone. In that case it would be doubly wrong. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thin Red Line Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 That's really annoying. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 I suspect that it may have something to do with the fact that such items can't be destroyed, in a sense 'locking up' points for the defender. I can definately think of gamey exploitations using fortifications to keep points safe. That would explain why pillboxes don't have this effect - they can be KO'd 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Originally posted by flamingknives: I suspect that it may have something to do with the fact that such items can't be destroyed, in a sense 'locking up' points for the defender. It doesn't work that way. In any case, even if that was the intent, it doesn't work. It's massively broken. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 CMAK will fix this and CMBB will probably get one more patch (see CMAK threads) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted November 20, 2003 Author Share Posted November 20, 2003 It would be ideal if we could get confirmation from BFC that they do in fact intend to release another patch for CMBB before regarding it as a finished product with no more patches to come. P.S. I did send an email to the boys at BFC with relevant save files some time ago so I'm not just bleating without having first sent evidence of the problem. Regards Jim R. [ November 19, 2003, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: Kanonier Reichmann ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann: P.S. I did send an email to the boys at BFC with relevant save files some time ago so I'm not just bleating without having first sent evidence of the problem. You needn't feel you need to justify yourself in that way. People who call legitimate questioning 'bleating' are the ones who are in the wrong. You have discovered an extremely serious bug and rightly pointed it out. [ November 20, 2003, 05:55 AM: Message edited by: CMplayer ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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