Le Tondu Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Steve, Thank you for your response. I accept what you've said. No problem there. I have noticed the hard work that has been done and I did say that I was eternally grateful for it. Thanks. LT 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pad152 Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 I had hoped to hear of an expansion pack that would give us the models that never made it, but sounds like adding new models is such a pain (3 people, 4 days per model) it just wouldn't be possible even if BFC added a new person to do it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hortlund Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Originally posted by Nolloff: you can´t really be serious that the game is unfinished just because some models are not there can´t you? It would seem we have different definitions of the word "finished". Maybe a quick consultation with some sort of dictionary will give an indication as to who is right and who is wrong? If there´s a gap between your personal design specifications for CMBB and the game as it is now or after the patch that´s rather your personal problem. I honestly doubt that the issue here is "my personal design specifications". There are models missing, BFC has said they will never finish those models. To me that means the game is not finished, done, completed, *insert whatever word you might prefer*. You seem to be of the opinion that the game is finished even though everything is not done. To me that is a contradiction. "Unfinished" can only relate to what the company, the adds, the box, the manual, the official promises stated to be included in the game and the status as it is now. I see no unfinished business there. I so do not want to go down this line of argument. Are you sure you want to get all legal and fuzzy here? Is that really the point? Do you think its my point? As for BFC and their dependancy on CM2 hitting the shelves in Q3 or Q4, lets just agree that we dont know enough about BFC and their business to have an opinion, and leave it at that. They seem to have survived the 6 month delay of CMBB that patching CMBO caused them though... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarquelne Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 It would seem we have different definitions of the word "finished". Maybe a quick consultation with some sort of dictionary will give an indication as to who is right and who is wrong? I just looked - you're wrong, he's right. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Originally posted by Leutnant Hortlund: It would seem we have different definitions of the word "finished". Maybe a quick consultation with some sort of dictionary will give an indication as to who is right and who is wrong?From www.dictionary.com: fin·ish v. fin·ished, fin·ish·ing, fin·ish·es v. tr. </font>To arrive at or attain the end of: finish a race.</font>To bring to an end; terminate: finished cleaning the room.</font>To consume all of; use up: finish a pie.</font>To bring to a desired or required state: finish a painting. See Synonyms at complete.</font>To give (wood, for example) a desired or particular surface texture.</font>To destroy; kill: finished the injured horse with a bullet.</font>To bring about the ruin of: The stock market crash finished many speculators. v. intr.</font>To come to an end; stop.</font>To reach the end of a task, course, or relationship.</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hortlund Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Well, Im glad you guys are focusing on the real issue here... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hortlund Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Ahh what the heck. I went and checked a dictionary too. We might as well avoid "the other issue" and focus on choice of words, and other important stuff. From the Cambridge dictionary: finish verb to come or bring (something) to an end, or to complete or use (something) completely 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarquelne Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Originally posted by Leutnant Hortlund: [QB] Ahh what the heck. I went and checked a dictionary too. We might as well avoid "the other issue" and focus on choice of words, and other important stuff.As a friend of mine once said when on the looosing end of an argument "They're just words, they don't mean anything!" Feel free to reframe your argument. "Negligently incomplete"? "Rough and unpolished"? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Personally, I think Hortlund is just a whinging bitchboy (the opposite of a rabid fanboy) who is depressed because of a lack of sun in his native Sweden. 'To bring something to an end' - so, by that definition CMBB is finished, because work has ended on it. See, dictionary says you are wrong. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hortlund Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Originally posted by Andreas: Personally, I think Hortlund is just a whinging bitchboy (the opposite of a rabid fanboy) who is depressed because of a lack of sun in his native Sweden. 'To bring something to an end' - so, by that definition CMBB is finished, because work has ended on it. See, dictionary says you are wrong. Well thats nice and mature of you. By all means, we can start calling eachother names if you want, but I doubt that would be very productive to this thread or the topic of discussion. And who can argue with that logic? I take it you are of the opinion that Mozarts Requiem is finished too then "because work has ended on it". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer76 Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Lt Hotlund, jesus christ! Would you prefer that we didnt have those vehicles AT ALL in the game? And if you insist that the game is not finished before we get all models in, then we would be in for a very long wait, why? Well, where is the Grant-Lee tank? Oh, multi turreted afv arent in, because the engine cant handle it, well, BTS should just do a complete engine write over before they release CMBB, right? And, how about the improved, but much left to be desired arty model? They should fix that also before they released CMBB. Yes, lets all follow Hotlunds opinion, and wait 5 yrs for the FINISHED (according to Hortlund) CMBB. Well, thanks HEAVEN that you have NO influence on BTS. Instead of your idiotic rambling, maybe you could return the unfinished product to BTS and go back to whatever super product you consider finished! Maybe a bit harsh, but, some ppl are just plain whiners. PS! No, Hotlund, Im no fanboy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hortlund Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Originally posted by Tarqulene: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Leutnant Hortlund: [QB] Ahh what the heck. I went and checked a dictionary too. We might as well avoid "the other issue" and focus on choice of words, and other important stuff.As a friend of mine once said when on the looosing end of an argument "They're just words, they don't mean anything!" Feel free to reframe your argument. "Negligently incomplete"? "Rough and unpolished"? </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flammenwerfer Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 * Improved graphics for intersections Very Cool. Is this for all types of intersections? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Originally posted by Leutnant Hortlund: Well thats nice and mature of you. About as mature as calling those agreeing with BFC 'fanboys', wouldn't you think? It appears you have trouble taking it, but are happy to dish it out? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Originally posted by Leutnant Hortlund: And who can argue with that logic? I take it you are of the opinion that Mozarts Requiem is finished too then "because work has ended on it". Yes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hortlund Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Originally posted by Panzer76: Lt Hotlund, jesus christ! Would you prefer that we didnt have those vehicles AT ALL in the game? Well this was unexpected....really. So the alternatives are: No vehicles at all in the game, or vehicles with incorrect models. Well, I'm sorry, but I'm expecting more from BFC. And if you insist that the game is not finished before we get all models in, then we would be in for a very long wait, why? Well, where is the Grant-Lee tank? Oh, multi turreted afv arent in, because the engine cant handle it, well, BTS should just do a complete engine write over before they release CMBB, right? What I am talking about is tanks and vehicles that are in the game, but they dont have the right model. SO instead of driving a SPW 251/17 around, you are driving a SPW 251/1 around, but the vehicle behaves like a 251/17 in every aspect. What are you talking about? From where I'm sitting, it looks as if you are talking about the addition of new vehicles/tanks/whatever. That is not the same thing you know. Yes, lets all follow Hotlunds opinion, and wait 5 yrs for the FINISHED (according to Hortlund) CMBB. Does anyone know how many models there are that are currently not done? I dont know the exact number, but I seriously doubt it would take 5 years for BFC to finish that since every vehicle takes 2-4 days to complete. You do the math. Well, thanks HEAVEN that you have NO influence on BTS. Instead of your idiotic rambling, maybe you could return the unfinished product to BTS and go back to whatever super product you consider finished! Maybe a bit harsh, but, some ppl are just plain whiners. Yes, it would be awful if customers actually had something to say about irrelevant stuff like having the right to expect a complete game when they buy it. PS! No, Hotlund, Im no fanboy. It would seem your tact and tone is only surpassed by your self awareness. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hortlund Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Originally posted by Andreas: About as mature as calling those agreeing with BFC 'fanboys', wouldn't you think? It appears you have trouble taking it, but are happy to dish it out? So did I mention anyone specific when I said "fanbois"? Did you mention anyone specific when you called me a "whinging bitchboy" (whatever that means, I did understand the second part though). Apparently you fail to understand the difference between the two. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer76 Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Originally posted by Leutnant Hortlund: So the alternatives are: No vehicles at all in the game, or vehicles with incorrect models. Are you trying to play stupid or... The choices for BTS (according to your logic) would be: 1. Do NOT include the vehicles they dont have time to make a accurate gfx for. 2. Include it and use a substitues model. So, according to you, if BTS for example only included 50 vehicles, with correct gfx models, the game would be FINISHED. I'm sorry, Im happy that BTS included those vehicles, even though it looks different from the real thing. And, I find it strange, to say the least, that you would prefer LESS vehicles. Which is the only realistic alternative. And it seems that your pretty much alone in you view on this. As BTS also have explained to you, there are other financial etc reasons for this. If you cannot accapt this, too bad for you. But please do us all a favour and come to terms with this and stop whining over things that will not happen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Originally posted by Leutnant Hortlund: So did I mention anyone specific when I said "fanbois"? Did you mention anyone specific when you called me a "whinging bitchboy" (whatever that means, I did understand the second part though). Apparently you fail to understand the difference between the two. Oh I do understand that I am just more honest than you. I thought you would try to hide behind something like what you just said. Tried and tested technique. What you fail to understand about 'finished' is that CMBB was a project with a defined outcome. As such, the people who started the project set themselves targets and milestones. As in all projects, when the targets have been achieved, the project is finished. Whether BFC's targets are the same as your expectations is neither here nor there. If your expectations exceed their targets, it is your problem, not theirs (unless they have done something to make you expect all the things you do expect - which they did not). The almost total irrelevance of your opinions about the project status for CMBB means that to BFC the project can still be 'finished', even though it may not meet your exacting standards. Since I am quite sure that "meeting Hortlunds personal expectations" was not part of the deliverables for CMBB, I guess I am safe in saying that meeting them (or not) has no bearing on whether the product is finished. [ February 09, 2003, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: Andreas ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarquelne Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Nah, I'm going to stick with "not finished".In that case this argument is finished, AFAIconcerned. Does that mean it's complete in every way? No, it means that I think that continuing is impractical, and that I will not be participating any more. You, of course, will maintain that I'm _not_ "finished". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hortlund Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Originally posted by Panzer76: Are you trying to play stupid or... The choices for BTS (according to your logic) would be: 1. Do NOT include the vehicles they dont have time to make a accurate gfx for. 2. Include it and use a substitues model. So, according to you, if BTS for example only included 50 vehicles, with correct gfx models, the game would be FINISHED. I'm sorry, Im happy that BTS included those vehicles, even though it looks different from the real thing. And, I find it strange, to say the least, that you would prefer LESS vehicles. Which is the only realistic alternative. You're rambling. What is wrong with option 3: Include the vehicles in the game with incorrect models, then patch the game until said vehicles have the correct model. Frankly, this is what I was expecting when I read (in October or something like that) that not all models would be included. And it seems that your pretty much alone in you view on this. As BTS also have explained to you, there are other financial etc reasons for this. If you cannot accapt this, too bad for you. But please do us all a favour and come to terms with this and stop whining over things that will not happen. I do not think "Oh, so you are not going to finish the product? Why not?"-questions are considered whining actually. [ February 09, 2003, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Leutnant Hortlund ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hortlund Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Originally posted by Tarqulene: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Nah, I'm going to stick with "not finished".In that case this argument is finished, AFAIconcerned. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Well Lt. Hortlund, I'm sure they would be happy to do all the "missing" models especially for you. Just give them a billing adress. I on the other hand can't really be bothered about the in most cases minor diffrences, it doesn't hinder gameplay so I don't mind and I certainly wouldn't want to pay extra for it, wich the extra work on it would mean. Too much effort for too little effort. Why is that so hard a concept for you to grasp? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hortlund Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Originally posted by Andreas: Oh I do understand that I am just more honest than you. I thought you would try to hide behind something like what you just said. Tried and tested technique. LOL honesty and being rude/offensive is not the same thing you know. I'll tell you another tried and tested technique if you want. When someone posts something you disagree with, avoid the issue, start personal attacks with the hope of turning the thread into a flame war that will be locked up. That way you can avoid the issue. What you fail to understand about 'finished' is that CMBB was a project with a defined outcome. As such, the people who started the project set themselves targets and milestones. As in all projects, when the targets have been achieved, the project is finished. Whether BFC's targets are the same as your expectations is neither here nor there. If your expectations exceed their targets, it is your problem, not theirs (unless they have done something to make you expect all the things you do expect - which they did not). You are correct in the fact that I was expecting BFC to patch the game until all the models were there. The reason I was expecting this is because BFC prides themselves in being the most realistic ww2 tactical wargame developer there is. More attention is paid to detail in this game than I have ever seen before. To run into some weird "yeah, I know the SPW 251/17 looks like a SPW 251/1, but we dont care"-attitude here was not something I was expecting. The almost total irrelevance of your opinions about the project status for CMBB means that to BFC the project can still be 'finished', even though it may not meet your exacting standards. Yes, but you have to understand that everyones opinions about CMBB is as irrelevant as mine, because at the end of the day, each and everyone of us on these boards is only one person be it a customer, a beta tester or whatever. With the "it doesnt matter what you think"-attitude that you (and I'm labelling you as a fanboi from here on, I think you've earned that right) and the other fanbois are trying to end this conversation with, why are you on these boards at all in the first place? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer76 Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Originally posted by Leutnant Hortlund: You're rambling. What is wrong with option 3: Include the vehicles in the game with incorrect models, then patch the game until said vehicles have the correct model. Steve has already explained why. Have you actually read what he wrote, or do you just insist on rambling about this because you have nothing else to do? Originally posted by Leutnant Hortlund: I do not think "Oh, so you are not going to finish the product? Why not?"-questions are considered whining actually. No, question is not considered whining. You have asked the question, and you got an answer, the fact that you cannot come to terms with this reality, and still keep on with this ungodly crusade of yours, makes you a whiner. And a pretty big one might I add. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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