Ok how shall i win ??

[Uedel]

I tryed meanwhile dozens of Games vs human opponents as an allied commander making an "Storm Assault" vs a German position.

I played pure infantry, tryed everything possible but allways did fail.

So HOW shall anyone ever win as allied commander playing a QB vs human with an Alliead Storm Assault ?

Who did ever win and how ?

And will there ever be cure from troops running out of cover to get slaughtered ?

Is this Game simple broken ?

[Bruno Weiss]

By golly, he's figured it out. Dang, and we had em all going there for a while. They actually believe the game worked and one could win. Well now that the cat is out of the bag, I guess it is all over.

Don't use Allied Storm assult no more then (whatever that is), use small unit tactics instead. Concealment, sneak, cover fire, disruption fire, area fire, smoke, all that stuff.

[ January 27, 2003, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[vedder]

Yeah its pretty impossible to Storm a defender with just inf and no smoke, arty, or armored support. Well, you could use massive amounts of Machine Gun fire, otherwise I suggest using a combined arms approach.

[MikeyD]

If you're attempting a WWI-style assault I'd suggest WWI-style tactics. Lots and LOTS of artillery! Probabbly more than CM's willing to give you in a single game. Turn his defenses into a moonscape. And lots and lots of smoke. Find his mg nests and isolate them from the battle. And make your assault across the shortest possible distance. Only John Wayne or Rambo could survive a frontal assault across across a 400m gap!

And after you've done that, your chances of beating him are still next-to-nothing, unless you run him out of ammo (that's how they get me).

[SteppenWolf]

I just tried some all inf. multiplayer battles, with my russian infantry storming a german occupied village.

My solution was:

I had got some artillery assets every time I played and I always started my assault after I had decent information about enemy defences.

I looked for a way where I can get my infantry as close as possible without being seen and become targets. Inf. that gets hit bad doing buildup might be of no use later as they break easier.

One I got my information about enemy defences I concentrated my artillery to the enemy's closest to my axis of assult. I made sure that the arty spotters had los and mg's and mortars where in position and cover arcs set. The secret of keeping your infantry happy is covery fire.

Then came the big moment. I had to make it about 150m from my wood and tall pines positions into the town...

I had 2 companies... and I commited 2 platoons from company A for additional cover fire... had one platoon of comaby A in reserve.

Company B was supposed to lead the charge with 2 platoons for company B with regulars leading and a green platoon following the more experienced troops.

After the artillery fire stoped I let the first 2 platoons of company B advance towards the house 150m away... I let the greens follow with a run into house one turn later.

What can I say.... it worked... it wasn't a nice picture once the battle was over I was holding the victory location in the village center.

Normaly I use more subtile tactics to get to my destination and after this bloodbath I think I will go back to those. Especially I think that a human more flexible player then the computer would have turned my victory into a big defeat by launching a coordinated counter attack.

The company that rushed into town lost almost 30% of it's people, the green platoon was broken or in panic etc. Anyhow since computer counter attacks are mostly suicidal in nature it was no problem to hold the town.

Anyhow this would be the results I would have expected in real live. So I don't think anything is broken. Inf. in CMBB is pretty close to real inf. and a big step forward if it comes to realism over super inf. in CMBO.

Ekk...that's a long msg!

Andy

[Snake Eyes]

Originally posted by Uedel:

...So HOW shall anyone ever win as allied commander playing a QB vs human with an Alliead Storm Assault ?

...Is this Game simple broken ?

I'm not sure what an 'Allied Storm Assault' is but obviously it isn't working. A change in your tactics is long overdue. This game is not broken, but it is very unforgiving of those that do not follow sound tactical doctrine. Forget Hollywood and try a new and ingenious method that takes advantage of your unit’s strengths and the enemy’s weaknesses. If these strengths and weaknesses are not apparent to you, then I suggest you read some books on the tactical history WWII. If this advise seems a bit daunting then try stopping by the Combat Mission – Tips and Tricks Forum for some help.

Good luck.

[Gutshot]

Hey Uedel-E-mail me to discuss setting up a QB pbem and I'll take what you consider to be the worst side,to see if I have any better luck than you seem to be having! :cool:

[Uedel]

when i say storm assault i mean the Type of Battle (I.E. Defense; Meeting Engagment, Attack, Assault etc the type of Battle) and not the Way i play it, or that i use the Inf. that way.

I try to move under Cover Fire (but that isnt everytime possible) and under concealment. But even MG possitions 500-800 meters aside my advance break my units if they got to move more then 10 meters over open ground.

[JasonC]

Cover fire by heavier arms, people have mentioned. But nobody has mentioned the "infantry depth attacker"'s greatest strength - the ammo limits of the defenders, compared to continual rally by the attackers.

An infantry-heavy attack should outlast the defense, not run it off its feet. Don't push so hard. Expect platoons to get shot up and break, and spend 5-10 minutes recovering. You want the defenders shooting at you at longer ranges and in cover, not point blank and in the open.

Point blank and in the open, the defender's ammo load *will* suffice to break your infantry beyond hope of recall. Men that break with 100m of open ground behind them get shot enough running away that they do not recover. Men that break in or near scattered trees will rally. And defenders that shoot at you at 250 yards in scattered tree cover will run out of bullets before you run out of men.

Probe with economy of force (that means one platoon on each axis of advance, led by a half squad), overwatch with other arms, and take out enemy support weapons that fire on the probers one by one. Do not charge yet. Squeeze, don't jerk the "trigger". When an area gets hot and a platoon breaks, fall back and take several minutes to recover. Send a fresh platoon forward, use company HQs to patch together something from the shot up ones.

The situation at the time of the actual infantry assault should be one of "fire discipline intimidation". By that I mean, the defenders have lost a number of their supporting heavy weapons (MGs, guns) to ranged fire (by arty, mortars, tanks if available, etc). Their squad infantry has taken few losses in their closer brushes with the attackers, but their ammo counters (if you could see them) are single digits or teens, with some already "low".

In this situation, the defenders can no longer afford to harass you by ranged fire. They can't afford to shoot at you while you are in cover - at all. They can't afford to contest even open ground areas, when the range is long. You can therefore move about and mass forces with considerably greater freedom than early on. The defender option is "pin that platoon at 200m, but only delay his movements 2-3 minutes, and use my last ammo - or reveal and then lose my last living heavy weapon - doing it, or let him proceed?"

When he picks "let him proceed", you have "fire discipline intimidation". He is on short arcs over open ground. Then and only then do you start thinking in terms of charges, use of mass, beating a portion of the defenders with local odds they can't handle. Before that, your depth is for absorbing his blows, spreading the pain around, cycling fresh men forward while the blown ones rally - not to get local odds.

Early, you use numbers to suffer patiently. Then you use numbers to intimidate him. Last, you use numbers to overwhelm portions of the defenders in sequence. You can't do the last first, because as long as his ammo stocks are full, every group of defenders can "reach out" to support the others. As their ammo drops and they lose their supporting heavy weapons, the range they will fire at, falls. That "disarticulates" the defense - one group can no longer effectively support the others some distance away.

Every turn your men rally back to higher morale states. The shallower the dips in their morale, the faster they recover. Every turn the defender's ammo counters tick lower. They do not recover. So be patient, do not jerk the trigger, just squeeze.

Slowly.

[JasonC]

Yes, MGs at range are remarkably effective at pinning you and forcing you to ground. They are also tough to locate, beyond a sound contact, at such ranges. But they aren't as deadly as they are frustrating, when shooting so far.

In a recent QB, my defense was constructed in large part around 4 HMG teams with interlocking fields of fire on long axes. 3 of the 4 fired a lot, without being located (the fourth, he hadn't reached its portion of the fire plan). They pinned things all over. The ranges were reasonable, not 500-800, but more like 200-450 yards, which is very good shooting for an HMG. In addition to driving men out of the open, they hammered men in scattered trees and rubble with their spare moments.

The game ended by cease fire agreement (for other reasons, the armor war etc), with these HMGs having expended close to 100 bursts between them. They had certainly had a material impact on the battle. But their actual infantry kills caused summed to the not-so-princely total of 7 men. On average, it took them 14 bursts to hit somebody. They were pinning and breaking many times their own number, but not killing them.

Pinning fire is defeated by depth of manpower, cycling fresh men forward, and time spent rallying - rather than by rushing around, or trying to avoid all open ground, or trying to get across it in 10 seconds. Of course you also try to take out located MGs - if you get close enough to get a full ID, you can suppress them (that close, often infantry fire will serve).

But defending MGs will shoot at you. They will pin your guys. Your infantry will look messed up after 10-15 minutes of this, even if you do not push too hard. Not too hard just means your men aren't slaughtered, just scared, and rally, instead of spending the rest of the game routed.

Infantry must be able to "fight ugly" under half-sized platoons, ad hoc company HQ formations, mixes with rattled men behind the few that aren't, etc. You should be spending a third of your time (on an infantry depth based assault, understand) thinking about rally, reform, and relief issues. Only one third about where to go or who to attack with the ordinary infantry. The last third should be focused on support weapons, overwatch, especially to take out enemy heavy weapons one at a time (not just suppress them momentarily).

His ammo won't kill a battalion, and will only break most of it permanently if you press too hard.

[MikeyD]

My own biggest failing as a commander is 'fire discipling'. I can't tell you how many time's I've made it to the end of a scenario by the skin of my teeth, with practically no infantry ammo left. Going back to the map afterwards I often find the enemy still has a couple platoons with most of their ammo intact. If they were to rally and reform at the end of a scenario I'd have nothing in reserve to beat them off.

So tactically, if you want a better chance of winning try harrassing your opponent through most of the game, wear him down, but keep a reserve back for the big final push.

[PiggDogg]

Jason, Mikey, & All,

Question: In BB, what is the approximate range from spotting enemy infantry at which defend MGs in good cover (woods, tall pines, heavy & light buildings) go from sound contacts to spotted ??

From experience with BB, my guess is that this range is somewhere between 200 to 250 to 300 meters, probably between 200 to 250. However, if someone has some more precise infomation or educated guesses, please come forward.

Cheers, Richard

[Gutshot]

Uedel mein freund,I'm telling you all this in an e-m,and also posting it here for peoples interest:-Thanks for the first file,but we need to discuss a few things first!-As the attacker with 5160pts to spend(against your 3000),the buy screen allows me (for example)8 x 122mm bombardments,7 x 12.7mm HMGs,and 11 companies of infantry(ie-33 platoons)

The time needed to order 99 squads around means we'd be playing for the next six months(yawn),so what I suggest is we scrap it before we start,then you can set it up again as a 1500-pointer.And I'd like some say about the terrain,say Town/Heavy trees/modest hills? Remember,you're giving me NO tanks or vehs,so to balance that I'd like typical inf-only terrain,fair enough?

[JasonC]

A sample Russian infantry force type force for a 1000 pt QB assault. Setting fall of 1943, steppe country (farmland, light trees, gentle slopes - nasty terrain for infantry force type attacks). I took -

3 infantry companies, type 43B

1 pioneer company

+1 maxim makes 4 all told

2 82mm mortars, on map

2 sharpshooters

2 76mm ZiS-3 field guns

3 120mm FOs (phone)

The "tasking" is as follows -

one company HQ acts as "battalion commander". He gets the 76mm guns, one FO, a single rifle platoon as battalion reserve, along with the pioneer company HQ commanding both 3rd squads from the 2 pioneer platoons (in effect, a 3rd mini-pioneer platoon, with additional command abilities). The infantry here is pure reserve. The guns' main mission is bunker busting, with intact heavy buildings their number 2 mission, light buildings a distant third.

The remaining 2 company HQs each commands an "overwatch group" of 2 HMGs, 1 82mm mortar, 1 120mm FO, and a sharpshooter. The sharpshooter and HQ are fast and good spotters; the rest slow but good shooters at range. These groups are meant to move up to gain LOS to locations not visible from the start line - though hardly immediately. The sharpshooter and HQ go first and check the route, etc. The set up locations should be areas of cover previously used by ordinary infantry, and 300-500 yards from the next area to be taken.

The main body of the infantry is divided between those two companies, and further divided into two echelons or waves. Four platoons (2 for each group) are well back and do not intend to get into the action for some time - they just pack into the available cover back there and hide. These include the better platoon HQs. Initially, the same is true of the pioneer platoons (each HQ and 2 squads), but they are the "between" the two echelons, or the first of the rear area guys to go forward. Their mission is clearing mines.

The forward wave thus consists of 4 platoons, divided between two axes of advance. Which they are depends of terrain, but typically one will be along one edge and then an inward hook, while the other is closer to the center or a shallower hook on the same side. They are meant to support each other, but advance at different rates depending on which gets hung up. They are *not* meant to fight all of the defenders - some portion of the defense should be ignored, bypassed, with just HMG fire lanes cutting them off from the rest of the map.

Within each advancing group, the platoons can be side by side if there is enough room and cover, or one behind the other if there isn't. When side by side, they do not both move at once, but "walk" forward, overwatching each other. So either way, only one platoon on each axis is moving at a given time.

The foremost on each axis splits a leading squad to send a half squad ahead, a green one if available. The leading half squad uses "move to contact". Everyone else uses "advance" from cover to cover, "move" inside cover or in known dead ground. The pauses between moves as the other portion of the formation advances, will give time to recover from "advance" tiring. If necessary, wait a minute. When the platoons are one behind the other instead of side by side, the rear one "moves" to stay fresh. The lead one "advances", pausing when necessary to catch breath.

How fast is this caterpillar supposed to crawl along? Quite slowly. Expect to advance approximately 200m in 5 minutes.

You will draw fire from - bunkers, mortars, FOs, and HMGs. The mortars and FOs, you take your lumps and pull back to rally as necessary - and they run out of ammo. The bunkers, you KO with the overwatching 76s, or in a pinch or without LOS, with the 82mms once they get close.

The HMGs will mostly just pin the guys moving, especially at range. Sneak or advance the rest of the way to cover unless broken. When men break the company HQ gets to command radius to rally them, if they don't recover by the time their platoon HQ has moved on.

Do not blow your 120mm ammo on sound contacts at long range, early. It is expensive in ammo terms, and the suppression is temporary. You must time the moment when HMGs are suppressed. Remember that an HMG with only 2 men left, if it has had time to rally, is still just as dangerous as an intact one.

Instead plan to use your 120s on larger bodies of woods or trees, once defenders have been located. The relative absence of cover greatly aids FO targeting - there just aren't that many places sizeable numbers of defenders can be.

When one team makes contact with enemy infantry, close enough to draw squad fire, get IDs, etc, it is time to orchestrate a firefight with them. The first platoon engaged just goes to ground in the nearest cover, pulling back if it is too hot. If you were following procedures, you probably lost a half squad and had a platoon pinned, but no worse. The other portion of that echelon on that side gets "on line" with the platoon first engaged, typically slightly to one side, behind if necessary.

*Both* groups overwatch formations should get LOS to the defenders. The first 120mm FO with LOS to the general area orders a mission, which you should expect to take 5-6 minutes. Order ahead if you anticipate contact at some large body of cover. It is not hard with 3 FOs to have one "on deck" and others canceling. Done right you can have a barrage down in half the time, over in 5 minutes instead of starting. 4 HMGs can add to the suppression of the enemy infantry, and 2 82mm mortars can hit guns and MGs close enough to ID.

Then you decide whether the other company team flanks the position, or supports with the nearest platoon while the original side attacks, etc. You should have 3 platoons close enough to follow up the FO barrage. One will probably be too ragged out to help, that is OK.

Keep the second echelon guys walking through the areas of cover the first has already reached and cleared. You want them 2-3 minutes behind. When a platoon is particularly hard hit, stall that company and send one of the second echelon ones forward to take its place. Patch together what you can on the stragglers, around their own HQ if alive, the company HQ on that side otherwise.

If repulsed in an attack, pull back and give the men several minutes to rally. The second echelon positions should still be secure, and they can protect the men from any sort of counterattack. Do not press forward too hard with the other company while half is stalled, unless you see an immediate tactical opportunity. In other words, to not press to the point of failure. Wait until both "fists" can be thrown if need be, to throw one.

If held up by obstacles, do not attempt to get through them immediately. The men that make it beyond will be too weak and isolated. Instead, build a base of infantry in the nearest cover on your side of the obstacles - right up against them if possible, but not in or through.

Firefight from there to "draw" the "ammo teeth" of squad infantry beyond the obstacle, while still in cover. Even craters will serve if they are close (provided the enemy is not in excellent cover like trenches or heavy buildings, too close, etc).

Pioneers can clear out the mines. Gaps in otherwise continuous wire barriers are usually mined, especially patches of cover. That means a little successful mine clearing will generally give you a covered route through the obstacles. Be patient about sending them forward - the defender's coverage of the obstacles will fall with time, as his men behind them suppress and their ammo runs low.

Wait for him to run out of support weapons, artillery and mortar ammo, squad infantry or squad infantry ammo, or terrain. If he is backed up to the edge and you have 120 ammo remaining, get everybody reasonably close and then dump all you have on him. Always send the squad infantry last, and always keep the last platoon in reserve for the time when he runs out. Don't dash against an intact defense. Lean on it, slowly, until it isn't intact any more, and what is left will collapse.

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by PiggDogg:

Jason, Mikey, & All,

Question: In BB, what is the approximate range from spotting enemy infantry at which defend MGs in good cover (woods, tall pines, heavy & light buildings) go from sound contacts to spotted ??

From experience with BB, my guess is that this range is somewhere between 200 to 250 to 300 meters, probably between 200 to 250. However, if someone has some more precise infomation or educated guesses, please come forward.

Cheers, Richard

Actually, I just ran some tests on this a few days ago. I wasn't really scientific about it, I was just doing some rough tests for my own edification, but here's what I found out:

I set up MGs in various types of cover firing down lanes (cut off by rows of buildings) at Infantry platoons approaching on MOVE from about 800m away.

Assuming decent cover for the MGs (buildings, trees, etc.) and ideal spotting conditions (mid-day, clear skies):

Beyond about 450m the MG never gets spotted at all, and it takes a while for even a sound contact to resolve. I should be noted that at these ranges, the MGs cause very few casualties and in fact sometimes have to be "enticed" to fire with cover arcs - otherwise they save their ammo for closer targets.

Between about 450m and 350m, a sound contact pops up within 2-3 shots by the MG. However, it will take considerably longer for actual "Infantry?" or "Machine Gun?" visual contact to appear. At the upper end of this range (closer to 450m), the actual visual contact may never appear (or, at least, not for as long as I was willing to run the test). Closer to 350m, you will eventually get a visual contact, but it will usually take some time - sometimes more than a turn.

Below about 350m, the initial sound contact (which comes within 2 shots now) will resolve to a visual contact more quickly and reliably, and in less than a turn.

Below 300m, the MG usually gets only 2-3 shots off before getting spotted.

It should also be noted that when I did the above tests, I put the MGs at the very edge of the woods or pines, or in the foremost corner of the buildings. If you place the MGs further back into trees (or buildings), they might go unspotted for longer. You will also reduce the effectiveness of their outgoing fire, though.

Again, these were just very simple, quick-and-dirty tests. Besides obvious factors like weather, I also did not look into factors like experience level of the units attmpting to spot the MGs (I used all regulars), or the effects of units with binoculars or AFV optics on MG spotting (in my tests, there was one set of binocs with the HQ), or what happens when you have additional units trying to spot the MG that are not under fire, etc. All of these could have a dramatic effect on how quickly an MG will be spotted.

Cheers,

YD

[PiggDogg]

Yank,

Thanks for performing the test that I was too busy, ... make that, too lazy to perform.

Cheers, Richard

[Das Reich]

Originally posted by JasonC:

The foremost on each axis splits a leading squad to send a half squad ahead, a green one if available. The leading half squad uses "move to contact".

First, excellent post.

I was wondering why you prefer green half squads? I prefer to use vet or reg half squads to lead the way. They seem to take suprise fire better and they seem to come out intact more often than some of the greens have. The vets and regs keep their cool, which, depending on what you are trying to do, is a very good thing.

green squads lay down cover fire better than they scout and encounter suprise fire.

MHO, of course...

[JasonC]

The comment that "below 300m, the MG usually only gets 2-3 shots before being spotted", does not accord with my own experiences, with better forms of cover. I've seen cases where I IDed a trench in open ground at 175 meters, and still only had a sound contact to the HMG positioned in the trench, which had been firing for several minutes. Despite a half dozen overwatch units with binocs 400m away - which seem to make no difference that far from cover that good, incidentally. In practice, against more ordinary forms of cover (trenches are extraordinarily good), I expect to get firm IDs only at 200-250 yards from my regular infantry.

It is always worth putting an HMG 10-15m back into wood style cover, and at least 4m back into a building. The reduction in your own FP is tiny, and harder spotting is well worth it. Only infantry AT, with low initial hit chances at range and the need to kill on the first shot or die, need to be right at the edge of cover for accuracy purposes.

[JasonC]

Das Reich - thanks. I don't use the greens by preference for greens, but to save others. When you take regulars, you get a mix of qualities, with a few vets and a few greens in the mix. The greens are the least useful units. "Point" is an exceptionally hazardous duty with a low life expectancy. I consider the greens more expendable, that's all.

Nothing the point can do for itself matters a heck of a lot if it gets fired on; it is really up to the overwatch to save them. I don't mind if they rout away, even, since I prefer that to them dying. But the reason I don't use vets for it is not because vets aren't better at it, but because they are too valuable to throw away on such a hazardous mission.

It does help if the platoon HQ of the "point" has a good command rating, though. Because it keeps the response time to new orders low, and often the point has to jump from here to there, with numerous waypoints and changes of speed. Obviously morale is also useful, since you will take fire.

[Das Reich]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Das Reich - thanks. I don't use the greens by preference for greens, but to save others. When you take regulars, you get a mix of qualities, with a few vets and a few greens in the mix. The greens are the least useful units. "Point" is an exceptionally hazardous duty with a low life expectancy. I consider the greens more expendable, that's all.

Nothing the point can do for itself matters a heck of a lot if it gets fired on; it is really up to the overwatch to save them. I don't mind if they rout away, even, since I prefer that to them dying. But the reason I don't use vets for it is not because vets aren't better at it, but because they are too valuable to throw away on such a hazardous mission.

It does help if the platoon HQ of the "point" has a good command rating, though. Because it keeps the response time to new orders low, and often the point has to jump from here to there, with numerous waypoints and changes of speed. Obviously morale is also useful, since you will take fire.

yea, I have had many Vet half squads get mauled on point, but I always feel bad sending them young kids out to get cut down by an ambush of a couple of MG-42's.

Reminds of platoon when they would send the new guys on point. I always felt bad for the "fat" guy who gets it on his first mission.

But anyways, I think it certainly depends on what the situation is, of course. If I expect to encounter a dug in enemy on the defensive, then I will most likely use greens. But if I am just feeling for an enemy who is also feeling for me, like a meeting engagement type situation, then I like having the Vets or Regs up front so that they can hold their position for at least a minute to give me a chance to concentrate the rest of the force and move them into a position where I can overwhelm the enemy and get them routing.

But when I try and get a green squad or half squad to do this type of duty, they usually break on first up close contact.

So, like everything else in Combat Mission, situation depicts tactic.

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by JasonC:

The comment that "below 300m, the MG usually only gets 2-3 shots before being spotted", does not accord with my own experiences, with better forms of cover. I've seen cases where I IDed a trench in open ground at 175 meters, and still only had a sound contact to the HMG positioned in the trench, which had been firing for several minutes. Despite a half dozen overwatch units with binocs 400m away - which seem to make no difference that far from cover that good, incidentally. In practice, against more ordinary forms of cover (trenches are extraordinarily good), I expect to get firm IDs only at 200-250 yards from my regular infantry.

It is always worth putting an HMG 10-15m back into wood style cover, and at least 4m back into a building. The reduction in your own FP is tiny, and harder spotting is well worth it. Only infantry AT, with low initial hit chances at range and the need to kill on the first shot or die, need to be right at the edge of cover for accuracy purposes.

There are a few things that might explain the difference between my results and your experience. My guess is that it's probably mostly the 'back' in the cover positioning you mention - that could well make a 50 - 100m difference right there.

I also forgot to mention that my tests were without foxholes, which could also make some difference for the wooded terrain.

In addition, the very nature of the test (platoons approaching the MGs along very narrow lanes) meant that the MGs were *directly* in front of the platoons, presumably where the platoon's spotting ability would be the best.

At the time I was structuring the test, I was attempting to determine the minimum distance at which I could be completely confident a firing MG would remain unspotted in a given type of cover, so I deliberately skewed the test to make the MG more 'spottable' - IOW, I created a worst-case scenario. My results may therefore be best viewed as the *maximum* distance that you have a chance of spotting the MG positioned in a given terrain, not necessarily the distance where it is *likely* it will be spotted in a real combat situation where you've got the MG further back into the treeline, the enemy platoon isn't necessarily looking directly at it, etc.

Probably the most prudent thing to do is to assume that your MGs may be spotted by any enemy units closer than 350m, but you will probably need to get to within 200m to be sure of spotting enemy MGs.

Oh, one other thing I noticed in the test but did not take the time to flesh out further: MGs on second floors seem to be spotted much more quickly than on the first floor, all other conditions being equal. I'd need to do further tests to confirm this, though.

Cheers,

YD

[Grisha]

JasonC,

Just want to chime in with my appreciation of your posts on assault/offensive tactics. Your previous posts from an old CMBO thread about maneuver vs attrition really answered a lot of tactical questions I've had, resulting in my being a firm believer in superior firepower as the ultimate maneuver factor in combat. Many thanks!

[Uedel]

id set up terrain with modest hills modest trees and village, and IMO that is a fine inf terrain offering lot of cover but also gives defender some "shooting ranges" for surpressing and covering andvancing troops (not only close quarter battles).

3000 points arent that huge imo, but if u like we can set it up to 1500 points also, but sorry i dont like heavy trees game, not for defender and not as attacker because it goes down to sneaking trough woods and get surprissed at 50 meters inside the woods what makes the MG´s and mortars etc useless.As the initial posting descriped i diskussed Infantry only battles. Tank Battles completly different topic imo.

Thanks to all others here posting here i read it all and realy get some new ideas, how to aproach.

From what i read the Typical infantry battle must be planned over more turns then maybe was usefull in CMBO ?

[Dave H]

Originally posted by JasonC:

...Don't dash against an intact defense. Lean on it, slowly, until it isn't intact any more, and what is left will collapse.

I think you have captured the essence of infantry tactics in this very elegant statement. Taking your time as the attacker makes all the difference. As a corollary, make sure you allow sufficient time (turns) in the battle. Don't expect your troops to advance a kilometer under fire in ten minutes.

[Gutshot]

First off,an all-inf battle in WW2 is unrealistic and unenjoyable! Tanks were invented to make war more fun so I can't understand why anybody would want to set up a giant game without them?I know there were largish all-inf actions in WW2,but only where tanks couldn't accompany the inf because of impenetrable terrain or whatever.In short,to set up a game where the attacking inf have a long advance march in anything but the densest terrain to reach the defender is to ask for trouble,as they're going to be hammered by his bombardments,cut to pieces by his long-range HMGs, light mortars and inf-guns, and clobbered by air attack long before they arrive at his wire and minefields!Where's the fun for the attacker in that?This is WW2,not a Somme re-enactment!

(Edit-Sorry Uedel mate but I'm pulling out of our proposed battle because of the above reasons.And if anybody yells "chicken" at me,I expect to see them volunteer to take you on instead !)

[ January 28, 2003, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Gutshot ]