f...ing incomplete info on quick-battles!

[Schoerner]

I'm sure this was discussed before, but i have to get rid of that right now.

I just received the turn from my oponent for plotting my units for a 3000pts QB and what do i see?

Ground conditions are moist!

No info in the scen-text that weather is set to random!

I picked a very specialized force with 2 Brummbär and much too late i have to see, that weather setting needs an universal force.

Such a mistake in the best game ever, is not excusable!

BTS please fix that ASAP! :mad:

[ January 07, 2003, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: Schoerner ]

[Ken Talley]

So how did you determine what the ground conditions are?

I just joined my first PBEM ME, random conditions game. Neither of us have been able to determine the ground conditions. No boggin yet so I am assuming it is dry but I really don't know.

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by Schoerner:

I'm sure this was discussed before, but i have to get rid of that right now.

I just received the turn from my oponent for plotting my units for a 3000pts QB and what do i see?

Ground conditions are moist!

No info in the scen-text that weather is set to random!

I picked a very specialized force with 2 Brummbär and much too late i have to see, that weather setting needs an universal force.

Such a mistake in the best game ever, is not excusable!

BTS please fix that ASAP! :mad:

Sucks to be you. I'm sure that NEVER happened to armor commanders in the actual war -- they called 'time out when it got too muddy for the German beasts.

Or somefink.

Steve

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by Ken Talley:

So how did you determine what the ground conditions are?

I just joined my first PBEM ME, random conditions game. Neither of us have been able to determine the ground conditions. No boggin yet so I am assuming it is dry but I really don't know.

Ken, make sure you haven't got a unit selected, then move the mouse over the weather window in the bottom, left-center portion of the screen. The temperature, weather, time, and ground conditions will be displayed.

Steve

[jwxspoon]

God Bless a well made scenario. I suggest you go to Boots & Tracks, Schoerner. See link below.

jw

[WWB]

Ground conditions and weather are not the same thing. You cannot set specific ground conditions in QBs. You can set weather. Sometimes clear skies have moist ground. In fact, the ground is usually kind of moist (CM term is damp) aside from the high summer. Take a chill pill, move the tanks slowly and get on with life.

WWB

[Schoerner]

Originally posted by MrSpkr:

Sucks to be you. I'm sure that NEVER happened to armor commanders in the actual war -- they called 'time out when it got too muddy for the German beasts.

Or somefink.

Steve[/QB]

A commander that orders 2 Brummbär for a battle, where they will definately get stuck?

Dream on.

Maybe YOU would order your men to drive with a Brummbär over moist Fields. Me not.

[Terrapin]

Schoerner =

[Schoerner]

Originally posted by wwb_99:

Ground conditions and weather are not the same thing. You cannot set specific ground conditions in QBs. You can set weather. Sometimes clear skies have moist ground. In fact, the ground is usually kind of moist (CM term is damp) aside from the high summer. Take a chill pill, move the tanks slowly and get on with life.

WWB

:eek:

If damp ground can happen almost always, this makes multiplayer quick battles almost useless:

just let the QB-generator create one until damp ground conditions come out and don't tell the oponent about it and all the points he invests into tanks with high ground pressure are useless - voila - you have almost won.

[Schoerner]

Originally posted by jwxspoon:

God Bless a well made scenario. I suggest you go to Boots & Tracks, Schoerner. See link below.

jw

Yep.

B&Ts and the Depot - and no more QBs.

[Priest]

Uhm as have many here I have played a huge amount of battles (QB) in CMBO and CMBB.

This has never been an issue. First off it is realistic, second off never even noticed that ground conditions was not on the setup email to begin with (almost never look at it) and the reason I never look at it is because I play with people I trust. If you cannot bother to trust your opponent to even choose a QB condition then you best not play them.

Also if you do not pick ground condition (game not in front of me as I am at work) and it is randomly selected on the field then the opponent has zero advantage over you because he has to select forces and send you an email before you can see the ground conditions, which in fact you see first before he does (you get to setup after force selection IIRC). So if he/she wants to change ground conditions they would have to magically select forces for you and setup for you.

So uhm what are you complaining about?

[WWB]

What Terrapin said. Both sides have to deal with damp ground. Move slow, I never had too many bogging problems. And if you have a KT, why do you need to move fast anyhow?

WWB

[Schoerner]

Originally posted by Priest:

Uhm as have many here I have played a huge amount of battles (QB) in CMBO and CMBB.

This has never been an issue.

In CMBO this has never been an issue, due to the general lack of information.

So the players exchanged the data manually and everyone had exact the same knowledge about the conditions.

First off it is realistic,

If i want to play a realistic battle, i choose a (semi) historical one.

QBs are usually choosen for well balanced games.

And this is not the case, if someone has the key infos (weather) and the other player not.

The multiplayer scenario-info suggests information, but one of the key informations before ordering troops is hidden to one player.

second off never even noticed that ground conditions was not on the setup email to begin with (almost never look at it) and the reason I never look at it is because I play with people I trust.

Then be happy, that this didn't happen to you before.

I always choose my force depending on the conditions - therefore i need the info (and if the info is "random", then i know everything is possible).

I wanted to take a high risk with my force-mix and this force only is acceptable with good ground conditions and therefore a good weather is decisive.

If you cannot bother to trust your opponent to even choose a QB condition then you best not play them.

I like to play against the ppl on my ladder.

And it's not the fault of the oponent, if he forgets to mention some of the conditions, that are not mentioned in the briefing.

This is a problem of the game.

It would be even better, that NO info is given, instead of an incomplete one.

If it would be stated, that ground conditions and or weather are random, then everyone knows about the risk.

But now, this is a simple BUG.

Also if you do not pick ground condition (game not in front of me as I am at work) and it is randomly selected on the field then the opponent has zero advantage over you because he has to select forces and send you an email before you can see the ground conditions, which in fact you see first before he does (you get to setup after force selection IIRC). So if he/she wants to change ground conditions they would have to magically select forces for you and setup for you.

1. ground conditions can't be set

2. the problem is, the one who sets up the game, has info about the weather, while the oponent has none.

So uhm what are you complaining about?[/qb]

LOL

[ January 07, 2003, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: Schoerner ]

[Egbert]

Your language far outstrips the need for it.

</font>

• Play the game as it is handed to you.
  </font>
• You need to learn how to handle less than perfect conditions too.
  
  </font>
• Stop whining.
  </font>

[ January 07, 2003, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: Egbert ]

[Shosties]

Originally posted by Schoerner:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MrSpkr:

Sucks to be you. I'm sure that NEVER happened to armor commanders in the actual war -- they called 'time out when it got too muddy for the German beasts.

Or somefink.

Steve

A commander that orders 2 Brummbär for a battle, where they will definately get stuck?

Dream on.

Maybe YOU would order your men to drive with a Brummbär over moist Fields. Me not.[/QB]</font>

[Schoerner]

Originally posted by Egbert:

Your language far outstrips the need for it.

</font>

• Play the game as it is handed to you.

Could it be, you missed a lot of pro and con discussions about several game aspects?
Do you know, that BTS cares about the customers?

</font>You need to learn how to handle less than perfect conditions too.

Maybe you need to learn about the importance of wheater/ground-informations before picking the troops?

</font>Stop whining.
</font>

Why?

Because you don't understand?

[Ultraman]

I wanted to take a high risk with my force-mix and this force only is acceptable with good ground conditions and therefore a good weather is decisive

Doesn't risktaking acknowledge risks? Granted, we've all got our preferences, and I for one like the fact that I can't take anything for granted with this game.

[Treeburst155]

Wait until he bogs his StuG IIIs in scattered trees in DRY conditions! You think he's upset now? You ain't seen nuthin' yet.

Still, it would be nice if both players in a QB had the same exact info available at the time they purchase their forces. Am I to understand this is not the case?

Treeburst155 out.

[Schoerner]

Ultraman,

with risk i didn't mean weather-lottery. I meant the force mix, with the 2 Brummbärs as decisive factor. :cool:

Maximum speed for them was also a main factor.

So the exciting new tips about moving slowly when ground is damp, are right, but not possible in this particular case.

[WWB]

Well, if the original plan does not work, adjust. If you can't adjust then you dont deserve to win anyhow.

Your opponent does not have dry conditions either. He has no advantage.

Also, if your oppponent is reasonably honest he does not know anymore about the ground conditions when purchasing first. You just get the unit purchase screen, same as you do. No ground conditions declared for either side. Basically, what is your beef?

WWB

[Schoerner]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

Wait until he bogs his StuG IIIs in scattered trees in DRY conditions!

Treeburst, i'm not talking about bogging.

I'm complaining about the weather.

Still, it would be nice if both players in a QB had the same exact info available at the time they purchase their forces. Am I to understand this is not the case?

Treeburst155 out.

Oh, not possible.

After two hours someone is timidly beginning to understand the thread's topic.

[Priest]

Okay so let me get this straight.

1.) You are complaining that you cannot see something that your opponent cannot see (ground condition)

2.) You also bring up the fact that you do not get the weather conditions also, but as already stated they do not determine (only influence) the ground conditions. As proof I have played in more than one game that was rainy but with dry ground. Some thread way way way (did I mention way) back in the day said this is possible because it simulates an area where it has just started raining or something to the effect.

3.) You say that this is important because you play "competitively" on a ladder and that force and game balance are important, hmm okay, but since you play on a ladder then I would assume you have rules (like no rain or night games) that would alleviate this. Also if someone does cheat you cannot only ignore them but you kick them off the ladder.

Seems to me that since you can kick someone off of a ladder and can more easily identify a trend (due to the multiple player experiences on the ladder) you are actually in a better situation than the rest of us, who btw are not complaining.

More importantly I think you brought most of the thrashing on yourself by the way you approached the issue. Demands and whining tend to not get you very far.

One last thing to think about, say you are playing a rather "cheeky" player. He intentionally chooses rainy and then goes and buys all kinds of light tanks and/or chooses tanks based on ground pressure instead of anything else. You "unknowingly" choose your standard allotment of Brumbars and Tigers and even JadgTigers. Oh no the cheater got you! Oh but wait the ground conditions are dry, time to mop the floor with your opponent.

Because the way that MP works is that your will find out the ground condition before you opponent. Oh well to each his own, but puh-lease lighten up it is a.) only a game and b.) more of a challenge to actually play with adversity if you are up to it.

[Gaylord Focker]

Whats next, people complaining about paper cuts that the CMBB directions book gave them?

[dalem]

Originally posted by Gaylord Focker:

Whats next, people complaining about paper cuts that the CMBB directions book gave them?

Ow! My finger!

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!

Relax Schoerner. If you're so afraid of bogging then don't pick heavy assault guns. Surely there's something else available that can help you win your little ladder games.

-dale

[Schoerner]

Originally posted by Priest:

1.) You are complaining that you cannot see something that your opponent cannot see (ground condition)

Not ground condition. Also the one who creates the scenario, doesn't know about ground condition.

But he has infos about the weather and therefore is able to make conclusions, while the second player has absolutely no info.

2.) You also bring up the fact that you do not get the weather conditions also, but as already stated they do not determine (only influence) the ground conditions.

More info is always better than less, isn't it?

Ofcourse it would be very handy for multiplayer QBs, to determine the ground conditions or to set them to "hidden".

And this is a very old wish of many players.

3.) You say that this is important because you play "competitively" on a ladder and that force and game balance are important, hmm okay, but since you play on a ladder then I would assume you have rules (like no rain or night games) that would alleviate this.

I don't play competively.

By far most of us play for fun, but sometimes you want to reduce the random factor as much as possible (especially against unknown and much higher rated oponents).

Also if someone does cheat you cannot only ignore them but you kick them off the ladder.

That is the problem: i'm sure my oponent didn't cheat but the info provided by the game, leaks of ground conditions and for the second player even the whole weather info is missing.

More importantly I think you brought most of the thrashing on yourself by the way you approached the issue. Demands and whining tend to not get you very far.

If someone wants to understand the meaning, he will.

If someone can't stand, that his beloved girlfriend CombatMission is criticized, then it's his problem, not mine.

All i did, was to start a thread to get rid of my anger.

I invested 2 hours in investigating units and preparing for a battle against one of the best players on the ladder and then it turns out, that the assumptions i made, can never been made, for QBs, 'cause you've got no weather info and ground conditions are like rolling a dice.

Now i know that in QBs you should better forget such nice toys like Brummbärs or Ferdinands.

No possibility to get info for the complete conditions - just random if the expensive Übertanks will be useful or bog during the first three minutes.

One last thing to think about, say you are playing a rather "cheeky" player. He intentionally chooses rainy and then goes and buys all kinds of light tanks and/or chooses tanks based on ground pressure instead of anything else. You "unknowingly" choose your standard allotment of Brumbars and Tigers and even JadgTigers. Oh no the cheater got you! Oh but wait the ground conditions are dry, time to mop the floor with your opponent.

This was ok in CMBO and it is ok in CMBB.

But in CMBO there weren't such beasts like Brummbär or Ferdinand, where ground-conditions have highest priority.

I don't understand that you're defending a disadvantage.

I need the possibility to set ground-conditions in QBs, while one option should be the actual implementation (hidden, random).

I also need all the weather info, the player has, that sets up the game.

Maybe you should tell someone else, that this is only a game and criticizing one aspect, isn't blasphemy.

It's my right, if i lost two hours for nothing, to find clear words about the f...ing bad implemented info for the second player and the non choosable or displayed ground conditions.