Looking for some tips on setting up defences

[Ravhin]

I've got an upcoming high point game starting tonight, and I'd rather not get worked yet again by my opponent.

It's a random map battle, set in a village, and I've got roughly 1400 points to spend on fortifications. It just seems that I never set them up right. I'm looking for tips on using fortifications.

Right now I'm thinking about a lot of barbwire, with my inf in ambush spots hidden just in range of the wire. AT behind that to protect them. I expect my opponent to roll on me with a ton of inf and some tanks. I was planning on using all my armor points on AT, and much of my support on AT. Inf regulars to defend the wire...

Are mines worth it? trenches? (I always seem to get my trenches overrun then used against me)

Pill boxes always seem to become such a target, and I can never protect them from armor...suggestions?

[ May 25, 2005, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: Ravhin ]

[Blazing 88's]

Try this link:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=001647

Lots of questions can be answered in the Tips and Tricks forum from the sticky thread called:

CMAK, CMBB, CMBO: Anthology of Useful Posts II

Hope this helps ya kick some arse.

[Blazing 88's]

And this:

http://www.chema-cagi.com/combatmission/docs/TIPSRever/Help%20and%20Tips/index.html

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Ravhin:

[snips]

Right now I'm thinking about a lot of barbwire, with my inf in ambush spots hidden just in range of the wire. AT behind that to protect them.

The right way round (certainly according to WW2 Russian and late-war British tactical doctrine, and I suspect everyone else's too) is to make your anti-tank plan first, and then build the anti-infantry plan around it.

It might also be worth remembering that the aim of the defence is to destroy the attacker, not to hold ground. Barbed wire doesn't destroy much.

Originally posted by Ravhin:

Pill boxes always seem to become such a target, and I can never protect them from armor...suggestions?

Bunkers and pillboxes are badly mismodelled in CM; they are too easy to kill and hugely too easy to see. If you really must use them, they need to be keyholed in the same way as ATk guns.

All the best,

John.

[flamingknives]

Mines, if used well can be fantastically effective. Not only do they cause casualties, but they can stall an attack until engineers are bought forward. This can give you time to redeploy your defenses to better meet the attack.

Or, you can get sneaky. Deploy mines in an obvious ambush point, and the attacker may waste time and possibly ammunition assaulting a non-existant ambush. On top of that, if you can predict how he'll deploy to counter the ambush, you can hit him back more effectively. You can use them to channel the attacker into killzones, onto better hidden mines (Daisy-chains with proper AT mines either side being my favourite) or TRPs.

[Bannon DC]

My approach to defense is to avoid being in obvious spots. If it is a village, you should avoid being in the front buildings. They will be pummelled by tanks. The Germans would defend from the rear of villages for this reason and counterattack when the enemy entered the village.

Fortifications are good, but have to be placed where they can't be seen until close up. If the defender can see them early on (like wire and roadblocks), he can easily incorporate them into his master plan. If seen only when driving around a corner, for example, he has to deal with it that turn and adjust his master plan accordingly.

Bunkers are way to easy to knock out. Don't set a bunker up to cover an entire field of approach (unless you are fighting only infantry). A bunker at the end of a street can control a crucial point and is protected from enemy LOS by nearby buildings. Back it up with an AT gun and supporting infantry to cover the flanks.

Trenches can be used for AT guns as well as front line infantry. But, once your front line infantry is overrun, the enemy has them as you mentioned. Trenches can also be a decoy. They provide excellent cover, so don't discount them too easily.

Mines. The more you have the more successful. But they are not worth the points in a small battle when you could get other units. If you have a few spare points though, in an urban fight a simple daisy chain blocks a steet well enough.

You also need to develop some tactics in order to pull your opponent into your ambushes. A daisy chain will divert a tank to where you might have an AT gun, etc. Use those "spotting" markers to your advantage as well. Be seen and disappear (avoid getting spotted again).

Good luck

[Ravhin]

Keep the comments rolling in guys! I'm compiling all the best stuff together, for posting with my AAR.

[Dandelion]

You'll want to group defenses around the focal weapons. Infantry as close protection for AT barrels. Riflemen as close protection for machineguns. And so on.

If you have higher firepower than the attacker (in which case he really shouldn't be attacking), you'll want to remain on high ground. If lower firepower (the norm in any defensive setup), you'll want to keep a low profile instead (low ground, keyhole firelanes, abandon externalmost row of buildings in a builtup area etc) and force the enemy to close with you. Or he'll just reduce and suppress you with ranged firepower and spotted indirect fire.

The four principal defensive measures of any modern combat are

Reverse slope. Means in effect a reduction of combat distances to lethal range, and the ensuring of getting the first salvoe. On a reverse slope you are immune to ranged direct fire (an attacker will have superior firepower, or he cannot attack). Not sure if it is modelled that you are also a much smaller target for indirect fire (the spotted variant of which in any case being difficult to direct at you, unless the spotter crosses the crest and exposes himself).

Flanking fire. Most important aspect being frontal cover, with each of your units having fields of fire 45 degrees ahead but not directly ahead. This makes you immune to enemy direct fire. In order to reduce your position, he has to move up to a 45 degree angle in front of them, exposing himself. Is not effective if not combined with...

Interlocking fields of fire. Several flanking fire positions placed in a row produce a mesh of interlocking firelanes in front of the positions. As the enemy advances, he must expose himself to hostile fire befiore being able to project firepower into your positions. If firelanes are not interlocked, flanking fire has no real effect, since the enemy is able to advance in your "dead" 90 degree angles. Of course fire into a flank, whether against infantry or AFV, is much more effective than frontal fire.

Allround defense, meaning any position will be able to defend itself in any given direction. Since your sly foe will unfailingly appear in a place you really don't need him. Easiest achieved by the good old "two up one rear" positioning of units. You'll need to focus defensive effort and will rarely be able to hold a Napoleonic line. The creating of resistance nests covering the vital terrain will inevitable also create gaps in your defense. Such can be screened with small units, but if the enemy really wants to (and manages to ID your gaps), he will penetrate, and start appearing all over the place- This need not be a cause for panic if you can defend in all directions.

Basic principles of the attack are find, fix and flank. There are few other options actually (one can always hope for that frontal assault but it never materialises with human opponents). Patton called it holding him by the b***s and kicking him in the butt - same basic idea. Screen thin ahead, pin everyone you find, use reserves in a concentrated strike against a vulnerable point, roll up enemy position from the flank(s). If he succeeds, you are finished, there is no effective countermeasure. Very simple in it's essence.

To frustrate him finding you, you need mobile patrols and static ambushes in front of your main effort to eliminate his recon attempts. He'll find you anyway, especially if you're in static positions. But time is a force multiplier in itself, so frustrating is good. Who knows. Maybe he wastes his focal indirect fire assets to eliminate your rewcon team, having nothing left for your MLR.

To frustrate him fixing you, you'll want to avoid at all times the committing all of your force to combat. Until you have identified his focal effort, you'll want to keep about a third of your force in reserve, rear of the MLR and rested. A squad can successfully engage a platoon, and as a defender you'll want to make sure it is your squad engaging his platoon and not the other way around. He can hit your line with a screen, engaging everyone, and then hit your flank with a focal effort that you cannot meet because none of your men are able to move.

To frustrate him flanking you, use resistance nests with allround defense rather than defensive lines. Your reserves will ensure defense at depth automatically. You'll not be very worried about your flanks (in fact, very unrealistically carefree) and might even cut his pincer off with your reserves.

You'll want to keep any armoured assets rear when defending. They are counter attack assets (not applicable to TD's or kin). ID enemy armoured focal effort and as it assaults, hit it's flank in a concentrated effort of your own. Same principle applies to heavy firepower, high mobile infantry assets.

Some or all of this can always be applied in a given CMAK setup of company size or so. Smaller than that, it all becomes rather academic.

Trenches and foxholes are merely force multipliers for your defensive positions. They're good if you are. Both are horribly mismodelled in so many ways, and cannot be used even remotely historical. Basically, see them as body armour for your men. Units in trenches enjoy some 95% reduction of incoming fire, which is actually a massive benefit.

Wire and mines are delaying and area denial measures. Basically intended to fix your enemy in positions where you feel it particularly pleasant to have him. Typically right under a particularly potent barrel or two. Both are temporary and cannot be trusted to stop anyone, nor of course kill anything (though admittedly mines can stop AFVs and kill men - just don't count on it).

Bunkers are as silly as John has explained. You'll want to invest in other types of defenses.

Having said all that - and yes I know it's one of them posts that few will have the energy to read - I designed a scenario using a IRL trench system map with wires and mines. Turned out to be quite impossible to defeat when defended by a reinforced company. Aside from being a very boring scenario, we scrapped it as unplayable. We had two heavily supported battallions hurl themselves at it with no real effect. So defenses do work, however gruellingly silly they are modelled in the game (and they are).

Happy hunting

Dandelion

[Dandelion]

...I'd add that you'll always want to place automatic weapons on the outermost flanks, since they can then spray the ground in front of your position as they did IRL - problem is that in CMAK they won't really.

Yours again

Dandelion

[Generaloberst Guderian]

As far as fire support goes, TRPs are never a bad idea, as they give you something to fall back on in desperate situations. Sometime the speed of the attacker can be neutralized by flexibility on the part of the defender.

That being said, you may also want to try for a bit of a pre-emptive strike. If you know where his setup zone is i.e. "the staging area" you could try and hit it with a preplanned barrage from rocket artillery, much as the Russians did at the outset of Kursk in '43. In any rocket attack, the lightest units seem to die first, and with luck, you can diminish his ability to conduct recon and probe your defense.

[Bone_Vulture]

The functionality of barbed wire depends on the size of the map; small/medium is a good range. Remember that the wire is the ultimate infantry repellant - your opponent will likely rather take long detours than attempt to cross the wire.

Best locations for the wire are in the open ground between patches of cover that your opponent is likely to cross. Set up an MG in a keyhole position that it has clear view across the wire, and wait. Ypur opponent will be forced to either stumble through the wire or go around; either way, he'll lose time and manpower.

Barbed wire will also act as a light roadblock: it'll stop wheeled vehicles, which is useful if the terrain around the road is muddy.

Finally, barbed wire will probably affect your opponent's grand scheme: in order to save the aforementioned time and manpower, he'll likely attempt to flank your major fortifications, even if it means making a broad, time consuming maneuver from the edge of the map. Be prepared to set ambushes with mobile infantry and armor to meet these maneuvers.

[l.cassidy]

originally posted by Dandelion:

Having said all that - and yes I know it's one of them posts that few will have the energy to read -

For what is worth, Dandelion, posts like this one are the main reason that make me check this board on a daily basis.

Thank you!

Cheers

Cassidy

[K.A. Miles]

I agree, keep those long posts coming!

If it's not considered too off-topic, I have a question about trenches. Everyone seems to agree that they are modeled incorrectly, but I have a specific question regarding their effect in the game. Do trenches still provide 95% cover, even when the attacker is shooting down the trench (i.e. firing enfilade)?

[Ravhin]

Ok, question for Dandelion...I'm assuming I've got the lower firepower, I'm 99% sure that I do.

The map is kind of rolling hills with a fair amount of trees. There are like 9 flags along my side, I decided to "guard" a set of about 5 clustered together. Those flags are basically in a valley, small about 400m around, I set up on the ridges last night, as it covers the incoming roads and I've got sight path for about 500-800m in most directions. I set up interlocking fields of fire, MG42's at a 200m arc, AT stuff at 400m and my inf at about 100m in all directions. According to your post I'm better off setting up in a valley? Let them crest over the hill and and then hit them?

I'm working on setting up the mines, and wire etc tonight. I was thinking of making points to force them into without making it look like I'm forcing them...kinda jedi mind trick.

Also one thing that I'm not finding a ton of info on is the whole "hull down" thing...How does this work? The manual isn't really clear, and I have a feeling I'm losing tanks when I shouldn't be.

[Other Means]

The best place for wire, I've found, is on your side of a group of trees that he will use as cover. If you can channel him towards it, he will enter thinking it's great cover and then hit the wire on your side. Units on wire have 100% exposure and your MG's will break them. A TRP on the trees and the biggest artillery you can afford will decimate him.

Have a group of high quality infantry infiltrate forward, into cover he will pass. These can hit his schwerpunkt from behind, which is even better than from the flank. Have snipers go into his rear area. If you see "infantry?" markers in his rear near hills then send your snipers there - you may find his spotters. Have another sniper to take out his TC's. Use light flaks to keep his light armour at long range. You may even gun or track damage some of his big armour which is always a bonus.

Good luck.

[Dandelion]

The map is kind of rolling hills with a fair amount of trees. There are like 9 flags along my side, I decided to "guard" a set of about 5 clustered together.

Sounds like a really nice map. But you mean guarding the approaches and not the flags I trust? He'll have no use of the flags if he cannot reach them. Similarly, if possible you'll want to guard terrain overlooking the flags rather than the flags themselves. It's one of the main challenges IMHO opinion, to ignore the flags completely and just look at the terrain with a tactical eye. Shift-F helps.

Those flags are basically in a valley, small about 400m around, I set up on the ridges last night, as it covers the incoming roads and I've got sight path for about 500-800m in most directions. I set up interlocking fields of fire, MG42's at a 200m arc, AT stuff at 400m and my inf at about 100m in all directions. According to your post I'm better off setting up in a valley? Let them crest over the hill and and then hit them?

Better off setting up on the slopes behind the crest ("behind" is relative to the enemy) - Yes definately.

Not in the middle of the valley, where you'll just setup on a lower flat and he'll claim the crests and shell you. Remember Dien Bien Phu

But right now you do not really have sight 5-800 metres; your enemy has a juicy spotting opportunity of 5-800 metres on your units, enabling him to project his superior firepower into your inferior ranks. He can pin all of your crested units from afar and direct all kinds of extremely unpleasant indirects, snipers and whatnots at them. You know how the guns work in the game - one hostile mortar and you can forget all your AT stuff, there is no "re-crew" function. And you will also want to remember that it only takes a halfsquad some 5 turns to scout a 400m position effectively, if your opponent is indifferent about their lives.

I know it is instinct, and powerful, and I suffer under the same slavery of thought, but you really must ask yourself why you feel that urge to cover incoming roads - is the enemy very likely to be coming down the road? You'll have to admit the possibility of him filtering through the fair amount of forest instead, in short leaps and using heavy support and possibly even smoke for every leap. Maybe he recces ahead before every leap as well. All of that would negate much of your Eagle Eye. But if you're waiting just across the crest, he'll still have to leap over it, and then comes your freebee first salvoe like a check in the mail. If he has AFVs and is careless enough to spearhead with them, you'll be offered a rare underbelly. But nobody ever spearheads with AFVs, one never gets to have any real fun.

You'll want to deploy a wee bit into the fairly dispersed groves, to have frontal cover, so as to not expose yourself to his vengeful return fire once he does cross that crest and recovers.

Another thing of interest is covered arc (as in visibility, not the CM command) - you mention them. A golden rule is to never have a covered arc that you cannot dominate, because it inevitably becomes an arc of incoming fire instead. I might have a wide covered arc covering the entire map, but it really only means that the entire map can fire at me. You'll want to narrow your arcs down to make sure that the barrel(s) having them will totally dominate and control everything appearing in it. This is very difficult on a crest. You can achieve it by keyhole arcs, e.g. by deploying someway into a grove or a house.

I'm working on setting up the mines, and wire etc tonight. I was thinking of making points to force them into without making it look like I'm forcing them...kinda jedi mind trick.

Will be real neat if it works and you'll be God on the forum for weeks. But war even in wargame shape tends to be really primitive affaires. The simplest things tend to be the only things that actually work.

Mines and wire are always placed in a place where one does not want the opponent to advance unhindered - this your foe will always be able to deduct.

His second thought - why you don't want him to go there, is beyond prediction. He might assume you're really stupid and smile in reassurance, advancing confidently, or he might assume you're an evil genious, scheming, vile and villanous and simply freeze in his tracks. No real way of predicting.

His third thought - what to do in order to foil your plans, is yet another step beyond predictable.

Placing minefields as a double bluff requires precise prediction of his assumptions.

Personally I do not try to manipulate my foes into any behaviour using area denials. They're all too irrational and strange, since I usually play Anglosaxons - who think in very alien and bizarre ways. I put a wire or minefield where I want him to halt, so I can aim properly and shoot him down. Placed in proper terrain or behind proper terrain, he'll discover it too late. And placed between me and him, he won't be able to extract immediate vengeance for my cheap trick. It is primitive, your opponent does not feel outsmarted one bit, but it always works.

Also one thing that I'm not finding a ton of info on is the whole "hull down" thing...How does this work? The manual isn't really clear, and I have a feeling I'm losing tanks when I shouldn't be.

Hull Down is extremely simple in theory. It means that the hull (main body) of a (an?) AFV is not visible to the firer. Should be understood as "Hull not visible". He can thus only fire at the turret (or superstructure, if turretless), reducing To Hit chances quite considerably.

But if he does hit, there is no further effect on damage calculations.

It is almost impossible to spot with your mere eye if AFVs are Hull Down relative to eachother on a CM map (though I have faced these infuriatingly annoying foes who actually do have an accurate eye for this). Just looking, you need the "realistic" scale, level 1 and 2 elevation visual, rotate a lot and see if you can't find suitable positions.

You have a visual aid in the LOS tool (can use Fire tool as well) for a given situation.

Other known mischief is to use "hunt" movement up over a ridge, hoping that your AFV will stop and fire while stull Hull Down relative to it's victim. Or indeed to dig AFV down in a defensive setup, but I have never been that defaistist myself. It's a bit like chopping the legs off a race horse.

Company or Battallion? What type of AT Stuff? What does the briefing say on his AFVs?

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by l.cassidy:

For what is worth, Dandelion, posts like this one are the main reason that make me check this board on a daily basis.

Thank you!

Cheers

Cassidy [/QB]

Well I wouldn't know the objective value but to me that's actually worth quite a lot, so thank you right back at ya!

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Ravhin]

If you want Dandelion I'll mail you the set up, map etc. I don't want to post to many details here as I know he reads the board, and he might figure out whom I'm plotting against.

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

Sounds like a really nice map. But you mean guarding the approaches and not the flags I trust? He'll have no use of the flags if he cannot reach them.

I didn't know that there were so many flags - knowing this, I'd like to add that it truly is the best tactic to set a majority of your forces around a defendable cluster of flags, since the final outcome of the battle will be a combination of casualties and flags held. Attempting to hold all the flags usually leads to senseless casualties, since your thin defending forces will be overrun one by one at each flag by a roaming enemy spearhead.

If you have plenty of room on the map, and you find it probable that the enemy will attempt to spearhead some side of your defenses, you could attempt to set a tiny recapturing "pirate" force hiding near the flags that are hardest for you to defend.

This way, you might be able to sneak back and recapture the flags, once your enemy is tied up elsewhere, trying to crack your best defended cluster. Just be sure that any initial forces that you set defending these "recap plan" flags do not retreat to the direction of your pirate force. You need to keep this force completely invisible until the enemy has moved on, or your plan is foiled.

[flamingknives]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

[snips]But nobody ever spearheads with AFVs, one never gets to have any real fun.

[/snips]

You'd think that...

But not so long ago, I was playing Kip Anderson on TCP/IP, and he did just that. He advanced a Company of PzIIIs and PzIVs plus some marders across open steppe (so I could see him) in fairly close formation, in the van of his attack. I was able to cross-trump him rather nicely with three KV-IS and two 76.2 mm Field guns (the long barreled ones. Result: I exchanged my assets for all but three or four PzIIIs and two full artillery modules worth of artillery. I still held the town I was defending with a battalion against an equivalent number of German troops who had 300-400m of open terrain to cross.

Bizzarely enough, the whole time Kip was enthusing about how realistic it was and how this is exactly what would have happened.

[securityguard]

All I know is, on medium sized assaults a barbwire & mine defense is almost crucial. Last assault I played all of my enemies tanks - except one - were mined. Wet condition assaults are especially easy to barb and mine, because the enemy is way more likely to take easier routes due to time or bogging. It is A LOT harder to barbwire and mine a map thats fairly open or large, but on a map where you know the enemy will have to move through you can stop them before they even start. QB Assaults are especially hard... you do not get many forces, just defenses which are worthless without the forces using those defenses.

I'll echo the bunker statement - they are fairly useless except at abnormal ranges where 88mm bunkers can put up a fight (they are ranged in like TRP's, so at range they will hit by the first or second shot).

[Askovdk]

Dandelion wrote:

Having said all that - and yes I know it's one of them posts that few will have the energy to read - I designed a scenario using a IRL trench system map with wires and mines. Turned out to be quite impossible to defeat when defended by a reinforced company. Aside from being a very boring scenario, we scrapped it as unplayable. We had two heavily supported battallions hurl themselves at it with no real effect. So defenses do work, however gruellingly silly they are modelled in the game (and they are).

I would love to see this setup.

It would be of great educational value to study and experiment with a professional setup. Couldn't you upload it with a note saying 'unplayable, but thoughtfull' ?

BTW I'm slowly but surely filling my hard disc with saves of treads from this forum, and they are only getting better and better, - thank you all.

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by Ravhin:

If you want Dandelion I'll mail you the set up, map etc. I don't want to post to many details here as I know he reads the board, and he might figure out whom I'm plotting against.

I'd love to but I don't actually own CMBB, I went from CMBO to CMAK. Same game as CMBB but not same files. You'll be playing a .cme file, which I cannot open in CMAK.

I understand the dilemma though and if I was your opponent I'd be reading whatever you wrote here as well

But you could always mail screenshots. I'll reply on your previous mail so you'll have the adress, hang on.

Sincerely

Dandelion

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by Askovdk:

I would love to see this setup.

It - or they as it were; there were two scrapped such attempts of the very same nature - are CMAK files. Do you own CMAK?

Ceerio

Dandelion

[Corvidae]

Deep defence, Leave tank hunter teams to guard your flags,, keep your real forces away from the flags, but in position to attack the enemy when they get in range,

Off map artilery and TRPs are good,,, go for the light stuff,,,

Keep reserves ready to deploy,

Dont waste points on uber tanks,

Snipers are great recon units,

Bunkers are only good if in cover,

HQ units- the ones with the "?" in a box, these are your forward HQs, use them for recon and forward defence,

Outflank,