Ryan Crierie Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Adding models is very tedious and requires the work of three people to get them in. Probably around 4 work days per vehicle, assuming ground up artwork or 2.5 days with significantly reused artwork.Uhm, Battlefront, has it ever occured to you NOT to include textures? I'd be more than happy to see a correct 3d model for something in the game, in flat shaded polygons....because our modders can always put in new textures for the game! I think from now on, you should stop including detailed textures with the new models added in each patch, since you have a rabid fanbase that is more than willing to do all the hard work to texture those models...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karch Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 you've got to be kidding. i don't have a single mod loaded, and i'd be willing to bet, neither do the majority of cm players. simply put, it would be suicide to sell an incomplete game on purpose. sure i could find and load mods. but frankly, i'd guess it's either too difficult or at least a pain for many computer users to deal with. it's easy to think that you and the other mod happy users are the norm, but i'd bet you are really in the minority. it's just that if you don't add mods you don't post about it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Crierie Posted February 9, 2003 Author Share Posted February 9, 2003 Originally posted by karch: you've got to be kidding. i don't have a single mod loaded, and i'd be willing to bet, neither do the majority of cm players. simply put, it would be suicide to sell an incomplete game on purpose. Then please explain to me why so many german halftracks have incorrect 3D models? It was a big annoyance to see that the Sd.Kfz.251/22 is represented as having a measly popgun instead of the big 75mm PaK it has.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Karch hit the nail on the head: simply put, it would be suicide to sell an incomplete game on purpose. Total suicide. Plus, the obvious solution is to not put in the unmodeled vehicles at all. That is the easiest, most complete solution. We set a rather low bar for vehicles in CMBB to be included. We could have easily raised it, cutting out all sorts of stuff. Or we could have only covered a certain period of the war which would have radically reduced the number of models needed. The most obvious solution would have been to eliminate all Axis Minor nations since when combined they represented a very large chunk of work. But we opted for including pretty much everything EXCEPT for some eyecandy. Because that is really all the 3D models are. Heck, we almost had to cut back on this stuff simply because we filled up the CD. Also... it is impossible to add a model correctly without the artwork. Any of the guys who worked with me can tell you that. You gamers haven't a clue how difficult and tedious it is to make the code understand how to map textures, turn things this way or that, rotate the tracks in the desired direction, etc. Yeah, I can whip a model into the game in about 3-4 hours, plus some time for Charles. But will it be texture ready? Almost never. And that is why the whole system is being chucked in favor of a much more powerful one. Downside is more coding time. But after the last two games we have learned that it is necessary time. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Ryan Crierie Then please explain to me why so many german halftracks have incorrect 3D models?Because halftracks (and other open vehicles) are the most time consuming to do. They are also, in this case, some of the smallest numbers of vehicles to be seen in combat. In other words, super low priority. It was a big annoyance to see that the Sd.Kfz.251/22 s represented as having a measly popgun instead of the big 75mm PaK it has..This vehicle was made in such small numbers it could easily have been left out completely. If 40 or so saw combat on the Eastern Front I would be surprised. Look, if it bothers you so much... I could have Charles fix that quite easily by adding: // to the code. I'll let the programmers out there explain this to Ryan if he doesn't understand what this does. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karch Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Originally posted by Ryan Crierie: Then please explain to me why so many german halftracks have incorrect 3D models? It was a big annoyance to see that the Sd.Kfz.251/22 is represented as having a measly popgun instead of the big 75mm PaK it has.. [/QB]It's very simple. Because they didn't have time to make all the models and textures. You have 3 options. 1) The vehicles aren't in the game at all 2) The vehicles get in the game but don't have exactly correct models (it's not like they put a US halftrack model in there) 3) The game would have taken even longer to be released. I agree the game isn't perfect, but BFC would be the first to agree with you, me too. Yes it isn't complete with 100% of the features they wanted to include in it, but the order of magnatude of difference between a couple of minor halftracks not getting their own models and EVERY VEHICLE or every added vehicle not having any textures at all is huge. I think you are vastly overestimating the number of people that would bother to buy the game if they had to track down textures just to see what the vehicles look like. Most people either wouldn't buy the game or would be upset that they had to wait for someone else to make textures for the vehicles and then figure out where the were, how to download them and how to install them. Easy for power gamers, but not as easy as you think for many computer users. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karch Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 whoops, had to change a diaper in mid typing and didn't know Steve was replying. ( baby's diaper, not mine! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-34\85 Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 What, the JS-3 not having textures will make people not buy the game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Also keep in mind Diaper Man , if people who call themselves Grognards (i.e. people who even know what a 251/22 is supposed to look like) play the game as it was intended on being played, they wouldn't have to worry about this. Why? Because they would never be put in command of such a vehicle or face one as the Soviets. And why is that? Because Rarity would see to it that it wouldn't happen. And unless you wanted to play out a historical battle with a 1945 patterned Panzer Divsion using its Panzerjäger or Aufklärung battalions (I think perhaps 1-2 divisions might fit this definition), such a vehicle wouldn't pop up in a user created scenario either. In fact, I wonder if there is even one historical accounting of this vehicle being used in a battle worth simulating in CMBB. Again... my point here is that this vehicle could have easily been cut out and lived without. I can think of a dozen others as well. But shame on us for at least putting them in incomplete. Next time we might learn from this hideous mistake so we can experience sniping and bitching about other aspects of the game Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karch Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Originally posted by T-34\85: What, the JS-3 not having textures will make people not buy the game? No, not a single vehicle. I now see that he meant that any new vehicle models added to the game instead of all the vehicles in the game, but I still think that it makes more sense for the majority of gamers to either include a similar but wrong model with textures than a correct model with solid color textures. As for the textures, does anyone know how many modders start their own mods from scratch. Creating all their own textures from photos of tanks, figuring out the texture size and positions and creating them all from nothing? I'd doubt many. I'd bet that the vast majority of mods are the original game textures recolored and reworked. If this is the case, it would take FAR longer to expect any textures for these new vehicles and I think would upset more gamers than the current system. And the model couldn't have NO textures, it would be invisible in the game. This means quite a bit of time would have to be used to create all the textures, label them, make sure they are coded into the game correctly etc... and this is still just to get a gray vehicle with a correct model but flat texture. The main problem with the current system is that if CM is your only source of vehicle information, you could be fooled by the wrong models. But the most important thing... the way the vehicle works, is actually modeled correctly. I may have misunderstood the number of vehicles to be created with no textures, but I stand by my first post. They made the best decisioin of the options available to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Diaper Man returneth! They made the best decisioin of the options available to them.Nah, apparently the best decision would have been to leave them out completely. I am sure that the people that apparently have nothing better to do than prolong a completely useless "debate" would have been completely satisfied with this decision. And instead of figuring out something else to complain about, would have sat back happily playing the game without a single thought about how crappy it was for us to not have finished it. On second thought... nah... never happen There would be a thread a day telling us that the game is complete and utter crap because some obscure HT or tank that NEVER SAW COMBAT was not included at all, not just in 3D form. Oh well, I've known about the "the developer never wins" position long before I made either CMBO or CMBB, so it honestly doesn't bother me 1/10th as much as it appears to. We know what the game really is and therefore have the correct perspective in which to judge our work in its entirety. Steve P.S. I'll stop calling you Diaper Man as of tomorrow. But for tonight, you are the hero of young kids! Er... assuming you meant you had to leave in order to change child's diaper [ February 09, 2003, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Captain Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Steve, Well I for one, am completely satisfied with the amazingly fine game the CM is. There isn't another wargame that even comes close to the ecstasy that CM is. Not even close! No other two games have ever been on my computer for as long or played as much as these two bits of wargaming heaven. So the textures aren't all there, so what? As you said eye-candy, at least the vehicles are there, and if you are a good commander, who cares what they look like if you know what they are, what they can do, and how to use them! I thank you guys everyday for answering all my wargaming wants! Just my $.02. Keep up the excellent work, and don't forget to keep supplying the floating brain with nutrients so you can continue on the path of excellence you guys set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karch Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Yeah.. baby diaper. With a 2 year old and a 3 month old, I'll let you guess which one's diapers are easier to change. Hmmm, one drinks mom's milk, the other one had Italian sausage for lunch this afternoon. Here's the little bugger that's keeping us up tonight. Baby Will Taken on Christmas Day. He's also the reason I don't get to play CM much anymore. Just not enough contiguous time ( and the whole OS X situation ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauCoupDinkyDau Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 LD, Stop kissing @$$. Steve isn't going to give you a free copy of of CM3, so give it up alreay! Sheesh! [ February 09, 2003, 01:43 AM: Message edited by: Vader's Jester ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Captain Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 LOL @ VJ, I just wanted to say something nice since their seems to be so much bitching lately. And I think it's mostly how the vast majority of us feel anyway. What are you doing away from your CM shrine anyway?!? Fanboy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauCoupDinkyDau Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Originally posted by Lord Dragon: I just wanted to say something nice since their seems to be so much bitching lately. And I think it's mostly how the vast majority of us feel anyway. What are you doing away from your CM shrine anyway?!? Fanboy. Yeah, there are to many complainers. I don't get it?! CMBB is the BEST wargame of all time, hands down, and they want to bitch about it because it isn't 'perfect' in their little world. WTF? Oh well, off to the shrine for more bowing and chanting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 if it is of any consolation to those who miss the '75L' halftrack model... in 'real life' the gun on it, having a good amount of recoil was said to warp the chassis when fired... so 'stummels' are at lot more realistic, textures/models or not... what i will miss are those '178(f)' 'panhorn' armored cars... unfortunately there are a lot more 'sturmtiger freaks' than there are 'armored car fanboiz'... (fan noiz?).. yep there is no way to please everybody... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Måkjager Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 As a "scratch" Mod maker i can attest to the fact that making a texture from 'scratch" is EXTREMELY time consuming.For example my Tiger I mods in CMBO....9 months work :eek: from start to finish. I had the oppertunity to work with BFC in providing several textures for CMBB. I made the original green Csaba armoured car texture in a 23hr straight sitting session( cammo and colour tweeking by Gordon Molek ) with a few minutes time only to chow and pee . It damn well near killed me..but i made a deadline with only 10mins to spare!!!!! I have experience of fitting new textures to those candy coloured 3d vehicles and can attest that sometimes things do not work out.....requiring Steve to remap the 3d model / textures to better represent what is wanted to be seen where it should be seen. So imagine....BFC announce CMBB patch 1.02 is the last patch..all work is finished...afvs included are "non textured" and BFC has NOW moved on to their next project. Along come Mr Joe Modder with his paint app and begins work on vehicle X...and then finds that the mapping is incorrect in parts....can u imagine the lambating BFC would get for releasing "unfinished" work. So BFC have a choice...either delay their new project ( to howls of disproval ) ...or ignore their paying customers.....something which would not sit well with BFC. No win situation. These guys take pride in their work...and will do what ever is possible within the allowed timeframe that they are working under to insure that they give it their best shot. We ALL want to be the proud owners of the best and most inclusive WWII tac sim ever made..but unfortunatley pressures of the real world do have a habit of intruding. regards Måkjager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laxx Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 Well, feature-creep will always be a thorn on the developers' side. Previous requests includes: More serious requests: - Tractors and Gun-carriages - non-generic tankette/small tanks mods - True snipers company Newbie Requests: - Field Kitchen (!) - Medics - Blood and Gore and Death Camps - Turrets Brewing Whiner's Request: - Ampulomet modding (yeah, fixed in 1.02 patch) - Horses for Calvary ...etc! and now, CMBB won't be complete until it fixes the "significant point" about the Sd.Kfz.251/22 .... ROTFL! [ February 09, 2003, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: laxx ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humus B. Chittenbee Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 CMBB IS NOT REALISTIC!!! I've been reading numerous threads about the accuracy (or 'in-') of the modeling of certain vehicles. This pales in comparison to the problems in the gameplay. Now, it is an historical fact that the Allies won in WWII. Thus it follows that the Allies won many (if not most) of the battles. However, in nearly every battle (representing the Allies) I have had my 'hat handed to me.' This is obviously not in keeping with the historic record. QED BF.C - how can you market this horribly modeled game and claim it is 'historically accurate?' NOTE: If the truth be told, I found the same weakness in CMBO. If this appalling oversight is not fixed by ... say... CM-VIII, you may well lose me as a customer! Sincerely, etc, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karch Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 Pretty funny post Humus. I really hope you were trying to be funny. If not, here are your answers. 1) You don't know how to play the game well enough to win. Keep practicing and learn better tactics. 2) If many scenarios were set up like many battles in WWII on the Eastern or Western front, you'd be able to win handily. Try this out. Make a 10,000 point game. As Allies, assault the Germans. Now only allow the Germans to spend about 2,000 of their points and make sure their troops are low on ammo and exhausted. I'll bet you'd be able to win then. CM can't have all the scenarios like that because no one would want to play if they had less than a 1% chance of surviving. QBs are meant to have historical forces on a somewhat even playing field so either side will usually have a chance of winning. Now I hope CM2 will have the ablity to specify games where the defender may be outnumbered 5:1 and has to realize they must pull back or be destroyed. Maybe you're playing a ME QB and are expecting 1:1 forces.. the game could give your enemy a surprise 100% bonus and YOU would have to play smart enough and realize what to do to survive. In that game even if you lost 50% of your troops, if you hurt your enemy somewhat and were able to remove all the rest of your units off the map you could win.. even though you lost more troops/points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 Lol... Im hoping the above post is a joke. No its gotta be... It's really gotta be. If it isnt... well Allies won many battles in WW2, but a lot of the more important battles they won aren't covered in CMBB (Air war over Europe, Battle of the Atlantic) Also unless you're joking you must be an idiot, because if you'd look at it, CMBB models tactical warfare, where indeed a good portion of the time Germans did end up victorious. But then again, only rarely will tactical victories win an entire campaign. Allies may have lost a lot of tactical battles even towards the end of the war, but the ability to shoot in fresh troops (while the Germans couldnt) or other events made tactical victories worthless in the long run. So yeah, the Germans could win a lot of tactical victories but lose the operation or campaign and it wouldn't matter. IIRC reading Beevor's book on the Battle of Berlin, the Russians took what like 3-600,000 casualties, while the Germans took about 100,000 casualties. ( MILITARY ) So this would indicate that on the tactical level German troops were killin off lots off Ruskie's at the END OF THE WAR but it didnt matter, because the Russians could send in more and the war was lost anyways. Anyways just my thoughts and whatnot, Im not saying whether or not Germans or Russians should win more or less, rather that CMBB is NOT unrealistic, nor is CMBO, at least compared to other games, and is more realistic than anything thats been made before. Also to claim its unrealistic because you lose is ridiculous because quite simply you could just suck at playing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 Humus was joking Check out that last line carefully. CM VIII... hehe... let's see, 2 years per release, subtract 2 for the games that are already done, that leaves 6 times 2... OK, check back with us in 12 years and let us know if we have done OK by you Steve P.S. Locking this one up so we can move on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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