PLM Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 it annoys me how i button up my tanks because i know there is danger but the guy just opens back up again after a while. even after he's shot at and the danger is still there he'll open back up. i wish there was a way to permanently close his top. i'll open it if i want to. it wouldn't bother me that they take risks, but they do it too often and get killed too often. also i wish when they are tangling with an enemy tank, even from far, that they would get inside when the enemy tank is clearly preparing to fire. how does everyone else handle tank commanders and how great is the benefit of having him top side? i know its a better LOS but how often is it worth it? btw one way i've found to counter this is to open up, then close each turn but that kinds of feels gamey. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 With the two man T34 turrets, there's very limited ability to acquire targets while the commander is busy with his head in the turret and looking through the narrow field of view of the gunsight. It was a problem in real life and tank commanders in almost every army were prime candidates to be picked off. I'm not sure there is much of a solution. Post war command cupola designs gave the commander more protection while maintaining some ability to look out directly, but there is alway the risk of a sniper getting the commander, especially if the ranges are short or the vehicle is not in motion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Leopard Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 I had know Michael Wittmann prefer unbutton due to quick spotting anti-gun nests and able direct firing much quick. Also Tanks vs snipers on battlefield in real world are very rarely due to tanks' fast movement unless assult direct. if create quick battle and always add snipers will be ficition unless history show proof that there will be always have snipers everywhere. I think I better search websites and buy some books about WWII snipers to see if we can create/edit some scenarios to more histortic event with snipers. I always wonder myself if some soldiers used to do wildlife hunters for living/hobby before war and able to pick targets up in long range with iron sight like Sgt. York did it in WWI. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 In CM, it should be enough if you unbutton/button the tank on each command phase. They shouldn't be peeking out on the following turn. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSColonel_131st Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 Actually, Vulture, they do. I played the 3rd Battle of Kharkov scenario, and I swear I lost a quarter of my Halftrack-Maschinegunners and Tank Commanders to enemy fire - eventually you could see them unbutton during the turn even if they had just an order to button up. But then, on another forum we have an ex-finnish TC (modern day T-90 or something like that) and even he says that in Finnland, with engagement ranges in woods under 300 meters, that it is standard to unbutton and use the hatch as a shield. So it seems things didn't change drastically. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 I remember a case in 1944 in which a Finnish T-34 was slaughtering Russian infantry. Then it ran out of shells - well okay, the gunner takes a SMG and starts spraying bullets at the enemy from the top hatch! After a while he is hit to head and falls to the bottom of the crew compartment. What does he do? Takes another SMG, climbs back up and jumps down to ground to shoot some more. Well, he had to go to field hospital for that wound though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denwad Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 ^ no I heard that he knocked out a few IS-2s when he ran out of shells he started knocking out tanks with empty shell casings tossed at 5000 fps. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Hays Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 If you have ever tried to move, acquire, and shoot at targets while buttoned up it is very difficult. Yes the gunner can see the "acquired target" but he has to do lots of scanning to pick it up in the first place. This is where the TC can bring the gunner on to the target and manuever his tank into the best position. So I would say it would be realistic especially for movement purposes if the TC was unbuttoned during movement and spotting. Also moving especially when off road is very dangerous buttoned up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaD JoKe Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by Sergei: I remember a case in 1944 in which a Finnish T-34 was slaughtering Russian infantry. Then it ran out of shells - well okay, the gunner takes a SMG and starts spraying bullets at the enemy from the top hatch! After a while he is hit to head and falls to the bottom of the crew compartment. What does he do? Takes another SMG, climbs back up and jumps down to ground to shoot some more. Well, he had to go to field hospital for that wound though. I want THAT modeled to the next CM :mad: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BulletRat Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by Denwad: ^ no I heard that he knocked out a few IS-2s when he ran out of shells he started knocking out tanks with empty shell casings tossed at 5000 fps. ROFL - do I detect a hint of sarcasm? Surely not - I mean these are uberfinns we are talking about! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaD JoKe Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by BulletRat: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Denwad: ^ no I heard that he knocked out a few IS-2s when he ran out of shells he started knocking out tanks with empty shell casings tossed at 5000 fps. ROFL - do I detect a hint of sarcasm? Surely not - I mean these are uberfinns we are talking about! </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Originally posted by Sergei: I remember a case in 1944 in which a Finnish T-34 was slaughtering Russian infantry. Then it ran out of shells - well okay, the gunner takes a SMG and starts spraying bullets at the enemy from the top hatch! After a while he is hit to head and falls to the bottom of the crew compartment. What does he do? Takes another SMG, climbs back up and jumps down to ground to shoot some more. Well, he had to go to field hospital for that wound though. Reminds me of an old friend of mine. Doctor: "Did you ever have trouble with your head". Friend: "Trouble with my head? No, never!". Wife: "Bernie, tell him what happened in Russia". Friend: "Russia? What about Russia? Oh, I forgot!" Points to left temple. "In here". Points to right temple. "Out there". And I bet Bernie did not stop fighting cause of a shot going straight thru. Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fridericus Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 due israeli statistics tanks with commanders looking out of it are 40% more effective then with closed hatches. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 Originally posted by fridericus: due israeli statistics tanks with commanders looking out of it are 40% more effective then with closed hatches. Which explains why the Israelis designed a commander's cupola so effective in providing cover while letting the TC look around, that it was copied and license-built by the USA for the M-60 series of tanks and was later adapted for the M-1 Abrams. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldblood Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Originally posted by PLM: i'll open it if i want to. Exacly what the litte guy´s sayin, don´t u yhink? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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