Semper Fi Tim Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 I am very impressed with the German Pioneer Squads effectiveness. I had them placed (hidden) on the 2nd floor and had a SU-152 rolling right up on them. I was sure that they were soon to be broken at best or dead at worst. Instead, they took that 152 out before it could elevate its gun onto them once picking them up in LOS. I zoomed in to watch the replay and wow, what a show. That squad tossed a grenade bundle out the window and that was it. It just knocked that 152 out. Those boys were going to hold their ground or dye trying. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Now, try the same with a Russian rifle squad, armed with molotov cocktails... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 true. i wish i knew where they got the (in)effectivness of Molotovs from. the only time i've heard of them, in the Hungarian uprising, they were very effective. 10 guys throwing napalm onto the engine compartment should be quite effective. for non pioneers, the Russian SMG squads are very effective. not as good as ANY german squad but good for Russian. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Originally posted by Other Means: 10 guys throwing napalm onto the engine compartment should be quite effective. for non pioneers, the Russian SMG squads are very effective. not as good as ANY german squad but good for Russian. Well uh, not exactly napalm, but I've never- and that covers over a dozen incidents - seen a molotov do any damage to an open vehicle, after scoring a "top penetration". And don't dis the SMG squads: at close range, a combined firepower of over 400 will mow down any German squad in a second. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Originally posted by Other Means: true. i wish i knew where they got the (in)effectivness of Molotovs from. the only time i've heard of them, in the Hungarian uprising, they were very effective. 10 guys throwing napalm onto the engine compartment should be quite effective. They are not ten guys throwing it, and it is not Napalm. It is one bottle of flammable liquid thrown. You need to hit the right spot to create any damage. A grenade bundle is not thrown, but placed (the graphics are not WYSIWYG) at the right location to disable the tank. Col. Triplet in his memoirs mentions trying Molotov Cocktails as weapons (he was at the weapons development centre of the US Army then), and found them to be ineffective, every time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 why is it one guy throwing it? when a grenade is thrown it is assumed to be more than one. why not the same with a molotov? no, it's not Napalm but it's a fuel with a thickening agent. and i know it was a case of that or nothing but there must have been some point to carrying them. these are not an AARs but search these pages for "molotov" Hungary. Hungary 2 and this for "Molotov cocktails" 17 Tanks destroyed by Molotovs i've not searched for "threw a molotov into a halftrack to no discernable effect" but if i did i'm sure i'd just come back to this forum. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicky Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Quicktime Movie Thankfully this tankhunter only had one Molotov cocktail left... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Originally posted by Other Means: why is it one guy throwing it? when a grenade is thrown it is assumed to be more than one. why not the same with a molotov?Because hand grenades were standard issue. The Soviet army didn't have fancy AT weapons like the molotovs for every individual soldier. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 The number of Molotov cocktails (and grenade bundles) in a squad is the number of Molotov cocktails (and grenade bundles) seen in the window in the user interface. The number of grenades is five times the number seen in the window. I have no doubt that both Hungarians and Finns (being at least linguistically related) are very adept at using Molotov cocktails. It is also possible that the game undermodels them. Who knows. I just wanted to clear up the misconception about 10 guys throwing them simultaneously, and them containing Napalm ('them' being the bottles, not the 10 guys). A sticky flammable liquid in a 1940 Molotov cocktail shares the 'sticky' and the 'liquid' attributes with Napalm, but is not necessarily as potent. A Ferrari and a Fiat are both Italian cars. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 ...and both get you where you want to go. usually. my thoughts are this: the granade bundles & demo packs are placed weapons, whereas grenades & molotovs are thrown. i have no difficulty thinking that each man would carry at least one. so for every molotov seen in the info window, it should equal 5 in the squad. when 1 is thrown, it is a concerted effort from the squad to disable the tank, not one maverick with a box of matches. when a grenade bundle is "thrown" and missed there should be a good chance of losing a man, as the grenade bundle missing really means the man not completing his mission. possibly from self defense fire from the tank. when the molotovs are thrown, it would be all the guys lighting them "ready on 3 - throw." kind of thing. this would result in quite a decent fire on the engine compartment rather than the piffling effect we see now. not that i think this gripe will change anything. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 I disagree about the throwing/placing examples here. Grenade bundles could be thrown (though not as far) and molotov cocktails could be placed. Of course placing a molotov cocktail (well, breaking it onto the engine deck) would be more likely to do the trick. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Originally posted by Other Means: so for every molotov seen in the info window, it should equal 5 in the squad. Well, but it doesn't, and it is also unlikely to change at this stage in the development of CMBB, even if you could dig out proof that Soviet squads habitually went into battle with 15-20 bottles of flammable sticky liquid that is almost entirely, but not quite unlike Napalm. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtcm Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Wicky: what a great movie 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Originally posted by Semper Fi Tim: I am very impressed with the German Pioneer Squads effectiveness. I had them placed (hidden) on the 2nd floor and had a SU-152 rolling right up on them. I was sure that they were soon to be broken at best or dead at worst. Instead, they took that 152 out before it could elevate its gun onto them once picking them up in LOS. I zoomed in to watch the replay and wow, what a show. That squad tossed a grenade bundle out the window and that was it. It just knocked that 152 out. Those boys were going to hold their ground or dye trying. While the action described is impressive, it is not limited to only Pioneer units. Any German squad armed with a Grenade bundle could achieve the same results. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 well but it should. and i'm going to sit here and sulk until it does. that'll teach em. OTOH i've had great success with non molotov attacks by SMG squads, mainly in urban areas. how a grenade or 5 does more damage than a molotov i'll never know. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 The grenade throwing is just a simulation of 10-12 guys working on the tank trying to disable it (using any means available). In the case of Hungarians, using tin-openers to wrench apart the armour plates, in the case of Finns, brute force and fingernails. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Pollock Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Had a T-26 take a Molotov "Top Penetration, 1 Crew Casualty" just the other day. Not nearly as effective as grenade bundles or RPGs, but still better than nothing. Can't recall ever seeing a KO or immobilisation to a Molotov, though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 It's incredible how the molotovs really don't seem to do anything, if the brave Soviets manage to fling one down an open-topped vehicle. I'm not expecting a nuclear explosion or the entire crew the fry, I'd be happy if the vehicle was "shocked" for something like half a minute while the crew scrambles to douse the flames. But I have noticed that the Ampulomet causes lots of spotter kills if its round lands near an unbuttoned tank. Sigh, a sharpshooter is more effective at that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Pollock Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Hmmm....that rings a bell. I'm pretty sure I did have a Molotov lunched from an Ampulomet cause a Pz IV to lose mobility. Same match that had a StuG III immobilised by a 50 mm mortar. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trommelfeuer Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Regards, Sven 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Bah - historically incorrect, that is neither a Finn nor a Hungarian in that picture. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 What was the official designation for this wonderweapon? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Dosenoeffner - Versorgungsnummer 123456. Nur auf dem Nachschubweg zu beziehen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denwad Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Yes, everyone knows a Russian couldn't possibly do that! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted March 6, 2004 Share Posted March 6, 2004 Originally posted by Andreas: The grenade throwing is just a simulation of 10-12 guys working on the tank trying to disable it (using any means available).That theory doesn't fit the fact that the grenades in CMBB are throw up to 40 meters. Clearly that models a thrown grenade. The abstracted area for a CM infantry unit is 15 meters. If BFC would limit the grenade throw to 15 meters, while keeping effectivity as it is now, I think people wouldn't complain. In that case the 30m (sometimes more) molotov had its use and the unit wouldn't suddenly become more effective (at the same range) when it runs out of molotovs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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