SC Economics

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by SuperTed:

Here is a list of the costs (in MPPs) of German units:

440 HQ-6 (Leeb, List, Busch, Weiss)

455 HQ-7 (Kluge, Model, Kleist)

470 HQ-8 (Rommel, Kesselring)

485 HQ-9 (Manstein)

125 Corps

250 Army

385 Rocket Detachment

325 Tank Group

400 Air Fleet

500 Strategic Bombers

660 Battleship

550 Cruiser

700 Carrier

358 Sub

A couple of things on this list are striking.

First, just how much the surface ships cost, especially the Carrier. I realize that this represents a grouping of the flagship along with supporting craft like destroyers, but it seems that only the USA might be able to afford (and utilize) any additional ones (... unless German player actually intends to invade USA or Canada)

Second, there doesn't seem to be much difference in leader quality -- price wise, since we suspect that superior HQ leaders will provide great potential benefit. Likely, we will always buy from the top down, since the extra 15 MPPs doesn't seem to be too much to pay?

[Straha]

In addition to your points: I wonder what a sensible overall ratio of spendings for

production/research/rest(movement,strengthening)

would be.

Straha

[pzgndr]

We should reserve comment on relative costs until we see how the game plays. I would expect to see higher costs for air/naval, but their relative effectiveness may justify the lower costs. I do wonder about the time required to build units. Does the game provide a production track with various delays per unit type? You can't exactly buy and build a new battleship in a week.

[Mr. Clark]

Bill, I MAY be wrong, but I believe it was said that as soon as you spend points for a unit... poof, there it is.

However, the time spent saving up the points to purchase the unit can be seen as production time, in a sort of abstract sense.

[Desert Dave]

One part of the economic system that I really like is the cost (10% of current production value) for operational movement.

This is going to force us to really pause and consider where we want (or need) the units. Move one army and one tank detachment and you are spending almost 60 MPPs! :eek:

And a question now occurs to me -- the rules say that you can only move a unit to a city (of 5 MPP or higher) -- if the city is occupied, can the unit arrive at a nearby hex? Or, will you have to plan ahead and make sure that a city near your front is empty?

[SuperTed]

Originally posted by Mr. Clark:

Bill, I MAY be wrong, but I believe it was said that as soon as you spend points for a unit... poof, there it is.

However, the time spent saving up the points to purchase the unit can be seen as production time, in a sort of abstract sense.

Mr. C,

That is correct.

[SuperTed]

Originally posted by Immer Etwas:

...And a question now occurs to me -- the rules say that you can only move a unit to a city (of 5 MPP or higher) -- if the city is occupied, can the unit arrive at a nearby hex? Or, will you have to plan ahead and make sure that a city near your front is empty?

IE,

Units moved operationally must end their move in or adjacent to a city.

[pzgndr]

So ... one turn after the Bismark is sunk a replacement could be purchased, built and ready for action?

And operational movement simply costs MPPs, with no baseline limit for rail capacity or redeployment capability?

Ah, the power of MPPs.

[Mr. Clark]

Originally posted by Bill Macon:

So ... one turn after the Bismark is sunk a replacement could be purchased, built and ready for action?

And operational movement simply costs MPPs, with no baseline limit for rail capacity or redeployment capability?

Ah, the power of MPPs.

I'll be honest, I don't even understand the last part... :eek:

BUT, as for the Bismark replacement... I don;t know how long it would take to build up 660 MPP's, but I don't think that would ever be considered a small expenditure. So, when you spend that amount on your Bismark II, you just have to imagine/assume that a reserve/extra/replacement ship has been in production for a while, and luckily is ready to sail to avenge its sister ship.

ALSO, the sinking of the Bismark will probably come as a surprise, and so that 660, even if you DO have it saved up already, was probably planned for use in some other area, which will now be depleted if you decide to build Bismark II.

It is all an abstraction/simplification, but it works for me.

EDIT: One extra thought... assuming that the Bismark is better than your average Battleship, that means it would have been "pumped up" to above the initial 10 rating. I assume any newly produced Battleship would start at the 10 rating, and then have to have more points spent on it to bump it up. (This last thought MAY all be based on a flawed view/understanding of how that part of the game works... on my part.)

[ May 07, 2002, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Clark ]

[Ancient One]

It's great to have a list of unit prices, but it would be easier to understand the prices if we knew how much MPP income different countries can expect to receive.

I believe someone said that Germany at the beginning of the 1939 scenario makes 120 MPPs per turn. I'd like to know how many MPP's are generated by the typical 10 strength city/capital/port/mine/oil (I've asked this question before, but never really got a straight answer).

Judging from the screenshots of the Scandinavian AAR, it seems as if some neutral countries enter the war with all their cities and resources at 5, and this number slowly increases over time. Does this apply to only minor powers or majors as well? Also, is it true that some cities/resources cannot go over 5? Finally, are American resources given an extra high value since so little of it is on map?

[Hubert Cater]

Although unit prices are of the same standard they do vary depending upon research and development, so there will be a variation during game play for different countries as well as for each campaign.

To answer some of the other questions, MPP's are not only used for purchases, transport and operational movement, but also for research as well as for reinforcing/upgrading weakened units. So that 660 Battleship might start to look a little less attractive and more expensive once you really get into the thick of things.

As an example it could be purchased early on (by the German player) to duke it out in the Battle of the Atlantic, but it might leave you short of some material for future offensives/defensives down the road. Careful strategic planning and balancing will be required when considering the future possibilities/options

Cities return 1 MPP * operational efficiency/strength

Capitals 2 MPP

Ports 1 MPP

Mines 2 MPP

Oil 3 MPP

Supply and strength of cities/resources depend on a number of factors and most have to do with drawing a direct line to your capital. Strengths of resources also depend on whether or not it is occupied or a friendly resource and it's too much detail to spill out here (i've given some basis previously in other threads), but it's intuitive and will be included in a table in the user manual.

The US resources are just like any other resources but should be considered as an abstraction of half of their total considering their own two front war including the Pacific.

[ May 07, 2002, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: Hubert Cater ]

[Ancient One]

Thank you Hubert, that makes sense.

[ May 07, 2002, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: Ancient One ]

[Ancient One]

Ooohh, that means the USSR gets 500 MPP per turn with it's original territory + Baltic states. :eek:

[Hubert Cater]

480 MPP

[Ancient One]

Oh, is that because the capital city bonus is lost if a country is conquered (Riga becomes a normal city after being absorbed by the USSR)? I also suppose that the city and port of Riga would be at half efficiency. 480 is still a helluva lot though. :cool:

[Hubert Cater]

Oh, is that because the capital city bonus is lost if a country is conquered (Riga becomes a normal city after being absorbed by the USSR)? I also suppose that the city and port of Riga would be at half efficiency.

Riga does become a regular city and the port at Sevastapol has a fortification which does not give MPP as income.

480 is still a helluva lot though.

And one of the reasons the Germans were so interested...

[BloodyBucket]

Are the Russians able to produce at full value right from the start, or is there a limit until they gear up production due to events? A lot of games don't let the Russians crank up right away.

[Hubert Cater]

Yes and no, since the russians are not active in the game until they enter the war, they do not collect regular income each turn. So what happens is that the russians collect about 5% of their income each allied turn until they get involved, so the idea is to try and balance out your strategies with when you think they might get involved, i.e. the longer you wait the more money they will have and so on. On top of this the number of units they start with will depend on when they get involved, again more the longer you wait. Then once involved they collect their full income

[Ancient One]

Do Italian cities and ports operate at full efficiency, in my opinion they shouldn't. Historically Italian war production was dismally poor, they were certainly no where near comparable to the UK or France, which is unfortunately what it looks like from the strategic map.

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Hubert Cater:

Yes and no, since the russians are not active in the game until they enter the war, they do not collect regular income each turn. So what happens is that the russians collect about 5% of their income each allied turn until they get involved, so the idea is to try and balance out your strategies with when you think they might get involved, i.e. the longer you wait the more money they will have and so on. On top of this the number of units they start with will depend on when they get involved, again more the longer you wait. Then once involved they collect their full income

Russian bear?

That is a Behemoth of biblical proportions! :eek:

My calculations are likely a little off, but at 5% of approximately 450 base MPPs times two years (until August '41 -- 50+ turns) to hoard beserker Armies and T-34s and you get what? -- 1200 MPPs! And that doesn't even include calculations based on accumulated totals.

I guess that means the invasion of Novia Scotia is O F F -- off!

I am thinking the German player MUST invade USSR sooner than later, AND capture (and hold as long as possible) every city and duma and mine within Panzergrenadier reach. :eek:

[SuperTed]

Originally posted by Ancient One:

Do Italian cities and ports operate at full efficiency, in my opinion they shouldn't. Historically Italian war production was dismally poor, they were certainly no where near comparable to the UK or France, which is unfortunately what it looks like from the strategic map.

AO,

Except for the ones in Libya, they do.

[Hubert Cater]

My calculations are likely a little off, but at 5% of approximately 450 base MPPs times two years (until August '41 -- 50+ turns) to hoard beserker Armies and T-34s and you get what? -- 1200 MPPs!

5% each 'allied' turn, so you are looking at around 600 MPP

Edit: This value also changes depending on the level you decide to play at. Two new levels have been introduced and 5% reflects beginner level so it could then go up or down depending on which level you choose.

The levels are:

Green

Novice

Beginner (Default)

Intermediate

Expert

[ May 08, 2002, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Hubert Cater ]

[Desert Dave]

But, Hubert...

The calender doesn't flip over until BOTH sides get their turn, does it? In other words, for a one week turn, first one side goes, and then the other?

So, USSR would still have 27 game-turns to accumulate MPPS in one year, yes?

[Hubert Cater]

It does flip over

[Ancient One]

Originally posted by SuperTed:

AO,

Except for the ones in Libya, they do.

Well that's bizarre, that means they get 115 MPP per turn correct? I hope that the British begin with a huge naval advantage.