What is your best Axis strategy?

[Lars]

Take France as fast as possible, ignore England, keep US out, early Barbarossa.

Use MPP's from Low Countries to put two points into Industrial Tech during second turn.

Meanwhile move the Corp in Denmark down to port and the Army in eastern Germany up to the port. You should have one Tank Army that had the stuffing kicked out of it in France, move this back to a port and reinforce.

Embark the rebuilt Tank Army, Army and Corp and send them with one Cruiser to invade Sweden.

By now France should have fallen. Hopefully you have gotten Industrial Tech. If you haven't, Op move everyone East and then rebuild units to full strength. It will eventually kick in and the longer you can wait before spending all the MPPs from France, the better. Reposition the German navy to lie in wait for the Soviets.

Leave one Air and three Corps to secure Western Front and to keep the Brits at bay.

Use Italian Navy to clear Eastern Med, move the Armies into southern Germany and build Tanks to deal with Yugoslavia after coup. Do not declare war on Yugoslavia, you want the US out of it as long as possible. Later the Italians will be used for Greece or as your strategic reserve.

After Sweden falls or the same turn, declare war on Russia. Use the MPP's to build Tanks, Air and another HQ. Go the southern route with the Tanks and Air. You want to cut Russia off from as many MPPs as possible and get them working for you. This is the Priority Front.

Use the Infantry Armies for Northern Group and push towards Riga/Leningrad. After destroying the Soviet Navy transport Army and Tank from Sweden and drop behind Riga to help secure this Front. Then continue towards Leningrad/Smolensk with Finnish help.

In the South you should going gangbusters and in Stalingrad or Rostov by now, bypassing Sevastopol for later. Leave the Minor Allies to do the garrison duty/mop up whenever they join.

You will be outproducing Russia at this point and in fine shape for the rest of the game.

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Lars:

You will be outproducing Russia at this point and in fine shape for the rest of the game.

Sounds like you may be ready to ratchet up that difficulty level a notch or two?

But, you may be vulnerable to a determined Russian counter-attack if supply lines are too thin. :eek:

Taking the mines quickly is a good idea.

Are you able to take Sweden with only 1 Tank, 1 Army and 1 Corps -- without a HQ? I always get bogged down if no HQ is nearby, though I suppose massive Air Fleet support could substitute.

And, I usually take Greece early so the Italians can parry the expected Allied Coup in Yugo, or, bolster Libya -- to be in a position to take Egypt and possibly Iraq. :cool:

[Lars]

Sounds like you may be ready to ratchet up that difficulty level a notch or two?

That's at the default. It still works at higher levels but you won't get as far obviously.

But, you may be vulnerable to a determined Russian counter-attack if supply lines are too thin.

The sooner you capture a city the sooner you can use it to build units in. Which will help counter any attacks from your admittedly long flank later. And the Soviets are really hurting at this point. Can't wait to see the Siberian Divisions show up in the full version.

Taking the mines quickly is a good idea.

It's all about the MPP's. Moscow is irrelevant as the whole country doesn't fold when the capital is captured. Rostov and Riga have a port. That's 10 bonus MPPs each. Leningrad (10 more!) should be about surrounded and ready to be starved out. And the pickings are looking ripe south of Rostov. I think the Minors will be able to starve Sevastopol out later. After a brief rest and repair it will be time to turn north and finish the Soviets off.

Are you able to take Sweden with only 1 Tank, 1 Army and 1 Corps -- without a HQ? I always get bogged down if no HQ is nearby, though I suppose massive Air Fleet support could substitute.

Yep, bombard with the cruiser, attack with the Army and Tank. The Corp should walk in that turn or the next. It only didn't work once, was I ever surprised. After the Soviet Navy is gone an amphibious landing to the rear of Riga is devastating.

And, I usually take Greece early so the Italians can parry the expected Allied Coup in Yugo, or, bolster Libya -- to be in a position to take Egypt and possibly Iraq.

I've never had a chance to bother with Greece really. I want the US to stay out. But in the full version Italy is going there next for the loot to build more units. Yugo's points will go for a tech upgrade for the Italians. Italy then defends in the West while the Germans finish off the East.

Egypt and Iraq are irrelevant sideshows at this stage (and probably the whole game if you take Malta/Gibralter) as the goal is to knock Russia out. I'll pick them up later (maybe) when I turn back to deal with the Brits.

[Aloid]

Lars, thanks for that last post... (didn't want to include the whole clip)

My attempt at taking Russia was stalled because I was by-passing cities. I've since learned alot about the game's supply rules, so I should give it another go.

In a sense, I guess it represents taking rail heads and road ways, so it's not a gamey thing after all.

Aloid

[Wolfe]

I used to like going after Sweden too, but I've never had good luck in taking it easily. I almost always have to have 4 ground units and a supporting HQ along with a naval unit to root out Helsinki. And I believe Hubert may be making this harder due to our gameplay with the demo.

I don't really think Sweden is necessary to get a good thrust deep into Russia, however. Going after Sweden even removes units from the initial push. And although I have transported them over from a conquered Sweden to try to get in behind Riga, I often find them getting hurt up there because of lack of supply. I prefer to ignore Sweden, even with its nice MPPs and just send everyone across the Polish border ASAP.

I really don't worry about Yugo; their uprising isn't substantial and Italian as well as Hun/Rom/Bul units are usually available to deal with them.

Greece isn't very difficult if you do the sea landing. Going over-land, however, is more adventurous. And I prefer to leave them for later; they'll still be there when I get back.

BTW, the Italians make for a reasonably decent Army Group Center; supporting the main thrust south of the Pripet marshes. This gives their HQ invaluable experience points in cleaning up beaten-down Soviet units.

Also, trying to link up with the Finns is quite a battle. It takes a lot of units (particularly air) and time to do it. Leningrad ain't no pushover.

- Chris

[Lars]

There usually is a little pause while you move units around after the fall of France, might as well take Sweden. Not necessary but it doesn't hurt. To bad it won't work for long!

It doesn't delay Barbarossa because you have to destroy the Sov Navy first anyway. Build a Air unit and use one of the Cruisers to bombard Riga and the amphibious landing is back in supply quickly.

I've tried the Italians as Army Group Center but you are really leaving your rear unprotected doing that. But it's only the demo so you can get away with it.

Linking up with the Finns is usually easy because the AI sends everybody south to deal with all your Tanks.

Remember, all Tanks and Corps with Air support on the Southern Front, Infantry Armies to the Northern Front. You are going for the quick knockout blow.

[Lars]

Tried it again at Expert level and –100.

Got my arse kicked by the Russians, mostly due to getting beat up by the French and having to launch Barbarossa before I was ready as the clock was running.

Sweden still fell in one turn though.

Bring on the full version!!!

[gorski]

You don't really need all fast units. Your advance is restricted to the speed of your HQ's and waiting for cities to grow to 5 mpp.(assumes scorched earth). I generaly use no German corps because they use up command points.

Gorski

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Wolfe:

I used to like going after Sweden too, but I've never had good luck in taking it easily. I almost always have to have 4 ground units and a supporting HQ along with a naval unit to root out Helsinki.

That has been my experience as well.

Maybe Lars just has a knack for taking Sweden? Like some people can build birdhouses, and others can whistle Beethoven's 9th while eating crackers. I have the feeling you could put a corps on every other hex in Sweden, and he would STILL be able to take it in one turn. :confused:

Well, it costs about 80 MPPs to transport the HQ over and back. I wonder though -- if you try to do it without the HQ, don't the units suffer MORE casualties when their readiness level is low? Could be it amounts to an equal trade-off, due to higher casualties? Plus, your HQ doesn't accrue that extra experience.

And another thing (... I haven't noticed), does a HQs influence extend across water hexes? You could station a HQ in Riga and still effect those units south of Stockholm?

[Lars]

Maybe his problem is he's trying to take Helsinki instead of Stockholm.

While I do build birdhouses and can whistle quite a bit of Beethoven, rest easy, I can't do it while eating a pile of crackers. Try the Queen of the Night aria from Mozart's The Magic Flute for a real challenge.

I land the Army to the north of Stockholm, the Corp to the south and the Tank just below the Corp. The Cruiser bombards, the Army attacks next, then the Tank. Hopefully the Corp gets to walk in, if not, it attacks for insurance. The other Swedish unit is to far away to get to the empty capital. The German unit in Oslo can be moved up to take a mine and get a quick 5 MPPs if Stockholm doesn't fall on the first try. I never attack the outlying Swedish unit, no point, just like the Dutch Corp.

And no, the HQ's do not extend across water as I recall from invading England.

gorski, the whole idea is speed. I use the Corps and Tanks (lots of them) to beat the clock. The HQ's can't really keep up so I don't worry about supply. Later, when the full version comes out, I imagine there will be a pause to regroup and rebuild.

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Lars:

While I do build birdhouses and can whistle quite a bit of Beethoven, rest easy, I can't do it while eating a pile of crackers. Try the Queen of the Night aria from Mozart's The Magic Flute for a real challenge.

Thank the lucky stars!

For awhile there I thought we might be dealing with Loki -- just like Prometheus, unchained from the rock -- thence the Twilight of the Gods ! :eek:

[Wolfe]

Originally posted by Lars:

Maybe his problem is he's trying to take Helsinki instead of Stockholm.

LOL! Whoops!

I like the 4th unit so I can completely surround the capital without putting the HQ in danger. The corps usually doesn't die for me if I use only 3 attacking units plus the ship. Maybe I'm just not lucky enough. Beating the Swedish unit down to 1 but then having it reinforce back to max is infuriating, and it's something I definitely try to avoid.

Of course, all this will become a moot point once the gold demo is released. C'mon Gold demo!

the whole idea is speed. I use the Corps and Tanks (lots of them) to beat the clock. The HQ's can't really keep up so I don't worry about supply. Later, when the full version comes out, I imagine there will be a pause to regroup and rebuild.

Definitely. Cutting off his MPPs is far more important than worrying about supply. Corps are important for scouting, allowing your tanks to drive without fear of being surprised. Natural breaks for me often come after I've reached the mines north of Sevastopol and have cut off Riga. My army units are usually fighting for Kiev and reinforcements are coming up behind along with the HQs. Once Kiev is mine, I feel freer to lurch forward without fear of being cut off or losing my gains.

- Chris

[ July 02, 2002, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Wolfe ]

[gorski]

gorski, the whole idea is speed. I use the Corps and Tanks (lots of them) to beat the clock. The HQ's can't really keep up so I don't worry about supply. Later, when the full version comes out, I imagine there will be a pause to regroup and rebuild.

I have not tried it that way. How do you continue to move and fight with 0 supply? This tactic only works vs the AI right?

Gorski

[Lars]

Originally posted by gorski:

I have not tried it that way. How do you continue to move and fight with 0 supply? This tactic only works vs the AI right?

They seem to do fine with no supply. Of course, you don't get the combat bonus from the HQ and you can't reinforce. But, if a unit gets too damaged(down to 3 or less) I move it back to the HQ to rebuild or use it to garrison until the HQ catches up.

Haven't tried anything but the AI. Just playing with ideas while I wait. Waiting for the full version to start a PBEM.

[Wolfe]

As lars said, moving a Tank around with Supply level of 0 isn't too bad, but you want to avoid fighting if you can, particularly if you get cutoff from your supporting units and have to fight your way back. That can be a bad thing.

But against a human, you won't be able to drive to the Eastern side of the map like you can against the AI (atleast currently in this particular beta demo scenario).

BTW, it's probably too late to get changed for the full release of the game, but I'm not sure that rivers present all that much of an obstacle. I cross them with ease and I'm even not very afraid of fighting on them. I wonder if this could use a bit of tweaking?

Also, the AI has a habit of moving an entrenched unit off of a city, losing the unit's entrenchment value, and then building a new corps on the city hex. This really hurts its defensive value. See this a lot at Riga and Leningrad, even when I don't have any units attacking. The new units would be better off being created outisde the city hex whenever possible, leaving the defenders to build up their entrenchment value.

Also, the AI has a tendency to use its entrenched units sitting on a city hex to attack with when surrounded. This often leads to the unit getting knocked down a couple of pegs during its attack, making taking the city that much easier. I love seeing this when I'm the one trying to take the city. I've had good luck with just leaving the city unit alone and letting the surrounding enemy beat on me, and then reinforcing back up to the max as the unit will often survive. It doesn't always happen, of course, but I think it's a good tactic. Leave the fighting to the units not guarding the city hex. Maybe the AI should try this as well.

- Chris

[Lars]

Originally posted by Wolfe:

Also, the AI has a habit of moving an entrenched unit off of a city, losing the unit's entrenchment value, and then building a new corps on the city hex. This really hurts its defensive value. See this a lot at Riga and Leningrad, even when I don't have any units attacking. The new units would be better off being created outisde the city hex whenever possible, leaving the defenders to build up their entrenchment value.

I agree. It bothers me more that I have to move my unit off of a city that I've captured in order to build a new one.

[Wolfe]

Originally posted by Lars:

I agree. It bothers me more that I have to move my unit off of a city that I've captured in order to build a new one.

Yeah I don't know what that's meant to represent in the game. I can't imagine it's a game-balance issue since once you get that city up to 5, then you can operate your units to it and all the unoccupied adjacent hexes, which is nice.

- Chris

[Hubert Cater]

It bothers me more that I have to move my unit off of a city that I've captured in order to build a new one.

This is meant to reflect the difference and benefits between raising fresh troops in your home countries as opposed to raising them in occupied territory.

Hubert

[Lars]

How is having to raise them at home and pay to Op move them to the city a benefit?

You can build one at the foreign city after moving the garrison off so there is no difference as far as the actual unit.

I don't know how it plays out as a game balance issue but it will make it more costly in time and MPPs to quickly reinforce a threatened city.

Was this your intent?

[Canuck_para]

I just played my first game where I did not try to take Britain out. I took the Low Lands and then France pretty quick. Then I went after Yugo, Sweden and Vichy. Yugo took 2 turns. Vichy moved to North Africa where their navy made me pay dearly. Sweden was down to 1 point in their capital when I ran out of steam.

After Yugo (who I gave to the Italians) I went after Greece and took a few turns to finish it off. Sweden took way to long as I hurried Air and an HQ to save the day. With Vichy moved I had many men so I went after Spain which was quite easy. Game soon ended with Vichy still holding but under pressure from Italian ground forces and HQ. A German HQ and Tank+Infantry were about to attack Egypt. Gibralter had just fallen and I was having an Air battle in Northern Europe.

I lost no ships but destroyed 3 or 4 allied. I had quite a few forces in Eastern Europe. No minors joined either side and no majors declared war on me.

[Hubert Cater]

How is having to raise them at home and pay to Op move them to the city a benefit?

There is none Probably my bad description originally but the idea is that there is a plus in building at home as opposed to building in occupied territory since it is more limited and that is the intent. The penalty reflects the idea that it would be logical to be able to build many troops at home where in occupied territory this would consist of mainly recruits etc., and would not be as quick and easy to do, thus the limit to only build in the city resource hexes in the game.

What is the result? Well the exact frustration you've been experiencing and again that is the intent, to reflect the difficulties in maintaining control in occupied territory and if you are in trouble it should not be that easy to just build and defend these areas, production is limited, but the transfer of troops is not. So in the end it adds to the strategic planning and anticipation of problems and makes it somewhat more historical in effect.

Hubert

[Lars]

Thanks for the clarification Hubert. Your reasoning is what I suspected was the case.

[Russ Bensing]

Originally posted by Wolfe:

I'd rather try to do it the other way around; push into the USSR as early as possible to try to drive deep, seizing mines and cutting off various cities from Moscow to prevent the MPPs from flowing.

Agreed. I'm not sure what the question is here: whether it's the best strategy for the demo, or the best strategy for the war given the way the demo goes. Even assuming it's the latter, one of the problems is that we don't know what the victory conditions are. My guess is that it's going to pretty much work out as the war did: victory for the Allies is conquering Germany, and victory for Germany is not getting conquered.

If that's the case, then again I think it's going to work out as it did historically: the only nation that's really capable of defeating Germany is Russia. If you devote the resources to conquering Britain, you're going to wind up with Russia entering the war on your doorstep, with 480 MPP's (which, with their 2 pts. of industrial tech, actually works out to nearly 700). And that's assuming you conquer Britain. It's no piece of cake against the AI (at least on anything other than beginner settings), and I assume it would be much harder against a human opponent. Under the best of circumstances, I don't see a better than 50% chance of taking Britain out, and if you come a cropper, you're toast.

In my playing as the German (intermediate, no bonus), I can take out the low countries, France, Sweden, and Yugoslavia, have four points of research, and can invade Russia by the December 13 turn (or the previous turn if I've knocked out France in three turns.) Depending upon which it is, by the time the demo runs out, I'm getting close to 500 MPP's, and the Russian is getting 350. At that point, I'm probably a couple to three turns from taking Odessa, Rostov, and the mines below the latter. I don't know what the victory conditions over Russia are -- I assume it's more than taking Moscow -- but I have six more months of 1941 to do that, before the US enters the war. I think I have a pretty good shot; at worst, I'll be on par production-wise with the Allies. Which means there's no way they'll mount a sufficient offensive to defeat me.

So as far as I'm concerned, forget about Britain, much less Vichy France and Spain. (Spain???) Eyes on the prize, baby. And the prize is Russia.

[Silvercloud]

Why is everyone ditching on Spain? I think its good to conquer it, seeing as it is pretty easy to do just station a few armour divisions along the border and rive those babies right for madrid and barcelona, then bomb em and take em in 2 turns, take another turn tot take out portugal and bam you got yerself an easy 600 prestige with almost no losses. You also improve your income by somewhat (I think +50 prod in total) and can take out gibraltar if you want to. (I usually don't bother, they cant produce there and the unit is in a fortification.)Obviously this creates a bigger front along which the allies can land, but a few corps in spain take care of that.

They always try to land at normandy anyway unless some space is completely undefended.

Taking Russia is a bitch and building a wall of armies & leaders + some fleets generallly keeps them out while you can train up (for free) your armies and take additional countries. against the AI I would note that he doesn't spend his points wisely. He just keeps throwing manpower at my wall, while my tech improves and his chances get lower. This even happens at highest difficulty setting and +1 prestige. Also let Italy take part in the war by giving them the balkan countries, this should booost em up to about 200-250 points.

I also station some armour for some quick action if russia leaves some units out in the open.Once I take all the points I can get then I go and use some sea units to knock out all the fleets, and then I take canada, station airfleets & leader there and then I take USA. Once I've taken out USA I focus on attacking England & Russia at the same time (as at this point germany has 500+ points per turn and Italy has 250+). I never actually got any further than taking England and getting stuck somewhere near moscow before the demo runs out.

If the AI would be a little smarter on the tech front then I agree take out Russia first, but considering the limited tactics in the game by the AI when playing Russia its easier to go for the small fish first and have a whoop-ass 4-star army when you start cutting into those limitless armies of Russia.

[Russ Bensing]

Originally posted by Immer Etwas:

Maybe Lars just has a knack for taking Sweden? Like some people can build birdhouses, and others can whistle Beethoven's 9th while eating crackers. I have the feeling you could put a corps on every other hex in Sweden, and he would STILL be able to take it in one turn.

I've found that you can take Sweden about 75% of the time with an army, a tank, a corps, and a cruiser. The problem is that in the other 25% of the cases, you're screwed; one time, I needed three armies, a tank, and an airfleet to extricate myself from the mess. (And three turns, during which Britain is getting the extra 35 MPP's.)

Use a tank, 2 armies, and a cruiser. Works every time. 75% of the time you'll take it on the first turn, the other 25% you'll wipe out the unit in Stockholm, but have to wait til the next turn to take it.

[ July 04, 2002, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: Russ Bensing ]