Where did everybody go?

[Esquire]

The board seems to be getting a little thin.

[jmbunnelle]

Originally posted by Esquire:

The board seems to be getting a little thin.

Chalk it up to CMBB. Probably just a lull.

[pzgndr]

FWIW, I'll offer an observation. The tug of war between the beer&pretzels crowd demanding fun and the grognards demanding historical accuracy has been going on since April, since before the demo was released. The former group, having beaten the game several times with L5 jets in 1942 and other such fantastic feats, is probably getting bored and either looking for entertainment elsewhere or beginning to reconsider some of those silly "historical accuracy" issues to make the game more interesting. The grognards were obviously frustrated from the beginning and have seen some but not enough changes to make the game more "realistic." And Hubert has been focused exclusively on gameplay fixes and TCP/IP, and hasn't provided any guidance on which way the game will evolve because he doesn't know himself yet. So we must wait and wonder, and that leads to more frustration and sometimes a few bitter debates. Accordingly, some of the grognards have grown weary and either gone into lurker mode or abandoned the forum (to be replaced by new grognards to refight the old battles!)

It's almost too funny. I've often put SC in perspective by noting that 3R evolved since 1974 through 4 editions, then morphed into A3R and several updates of that over all these YEARS. SC has now been out less than 2 MONTHS. We need to be patient. It should evolve into a much better game as time goes on, by offering more realism and historical accuracy without compromising the fun and replayability that it offers now.

[gunnergoz]

What he (Bill Macon) said.

[[Wiking]]

Still here, if just barely.

[willgamer]

IMHO, Bill Macon is right on point.

One way to look at a wargame is ask if it's more of a sim (Uncommon Valor) or more of a fantasy (Panzer General). Either way can be very successful. Seems to me SC is straddling down the middle with the ground warfare more of a sim, but the air, sea and production more of a fantasy. Thus the debates about which way it should go in the future will remain unresolved unless/until HC reveals his design goal. Of course, the goal may be to keep the game a hybrid just the way it is!

Grogly waiting, quietly, hopefully.....

[Esquire]

I have to date kept away from the on going debates about fun vs accuracy. I find this product in its current form to be very entertaining. Where is the line drawn on historical accuracy? To be 100% historicaly accurate would mean that the game is lost from the onset as the Axis player, What fun is that? Jets in 1942? Interesting but not so much fun as a long term campaign. I enjoy the strategic aspect of the game, not the rush to victory. Remember the goal in chess is to capture the King, not slaughter your opponents pieces. Oh well, just a thought.

[J Wagner]

I've noticed a common trend among various boards that I visit which has, to a degree, occured here.

Phase One...pre production of game....the board community is very active as they anticipate the release of the game...many threads devoted to the demo and what they would like to see in the game...I find this phase to be the most friendly and supportive among the forum community.

Phase Two...game is released....board is very active with various opinions and suggestions for the game...different camps start to develop as complaints start to surface...the anticipation of the release is now gone...some posters start to become a bit testy as they defend or criticize the game or specific feature...a gradual increase of off topic threads appear.

Phase Three...post release...many topics become redundant as every conceivable nuance of the game have been hashed and rehashed...more anger tends to show up at this time and off topic threads increase that adds fuel to the fire... thoughts of the next version of the game become manifest adding to the debates...posters start moving away due to these factors and decide to simply play the game and have a good time!

Phase Four...SCII is announced....see Phase One...and the cycle begins anew...

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

What about me Bill? Am i a grognard?!?!?

seriously though..

[John DiFool]

Well, the S to N ratio here is MUCH better than

in the CM boards, which have wall-to-wall nonsense

it seems (with a few ontopic posts here and there).

I agree-patience is needed here.

John DiFool

[pzgndr]

What about me Bill? Am i a grognard?!?!?

CVM is back! Sure, ANYBODY who insists on Finland-uber-alles and is ever so willing to accept the associated slings and arrows from this crowd deserves entry into Grognard Hall. But beware, like the Hotel California you may check out any time you want but can never leave ...

[geozero]

These are good comments. May I add that I think those that like this game as well as similar games (does anyone remember High Command for the PC???) will stick around and hopefully will see changes made to the game.

But it's hard to compare a PC game with a board game because PC games take a lot more man hours and efforts to make updates for playability than re-writing rules, etc. for a board game. There's simply too much programming time and other issues to make it viable (profitable) to continually provide software updates especially for FREE.

I would prefer paying even $5 to see major changes made than to see the game wither away.

The fact is that once the software maker has sold the product to YOU there's no more "profit". At some point Huber and the gang will not be able to do anymore free updates.

Sorry, but that's the reality with PC software...

Would be interested to know if there's a Strategic Command 2 in the works though.

[sogard]

Originally posted by Esquire:

I have to date kept away from the on going debates about fun vs accuracy. I find this product in its current form to be very entertaining. Where is the line drawn on historical accuracy? To be 100% historicaly accurate would mean that the game is lost from the onset as the Axis player, What fun is that?

I have seen this sentiment expressed many time on this board by gamers who want no restrictions placed upon them by the game design. (Not to pick on Esquire; but just using his post as a starting point.) The amusing thing about this argument that the outcome of WW II was forordained from the start is that I can not think of a major military historian who would agree with it. I repeat, the outcome of WW II was not foreordained. Contrary to this, Germany came much closer to winning the war in 1941 than many here seem to understand.

It is the same old mistake of looking back at historical outcomes as inevitable. Any study of history will dispell this myth. Many events which have occured in history were rather improbable when they occured and once a gamer appreciates this; many more options open to the gamer might become more attractive.

[ September 24, 2002, 01:47 AM: Message edited by: sogard ]

[BloodyBucket]

I have been a little less active on this board because:

</font>

• My computer is kaput and I am now existing on a borrowed 1996 laptop </font>
• My free time is being eaten up by family matters (new baby on the way) </font>
• Bill Macon and you others are saying the things that I would say </font>
• I have not played the game enough to have a really informed opinion (see item one) </font>

[Doomsday1]

I have been busy squeezing in turns for the 9 different PBEM games I have going, reading up on the posts,trying to be more of a grog, keeping my 'babe' wife satisfied ...with intellectual tidbits and somehow making it to work.

I am playing two Canadians, a Spaniard, a German, three fellow Americans and a guy from Japan. I am axis in 5 of the 3 games, I game is a mirror.

Its been historical...and "gamey". I lovvve this game!

[Kuniworth]

Well I´m for one still standing. :cool:

[Les the Sarge 9-1b]

I think Wagner's "phases" and Geozero's comments on long term profitability are fairly on the mark actually.

I have noticed the "phases" effect on other boards for other computer wargames.

Lots of pre game buzz, then it arrives, looooots of buzz, then the game becomes established and the buzz level drops off. And people start talking about the "next version".

But eventually, the game becomes yesterday's computer tech and becomes hard to justify spending further effort on, especially when the latest tech makes major improvements through the next version possible.

Currently I have been actively watching the evolution of the game through its forum existence.

I recall the pre game buzz, and now I am watching the evolution of the game buzz. But the game has made it's way through a few patches, and it appears, that what can be done, might have already have been done.

I suspect, that if there is going to be a version 2 at all, it will start a pre release buzz in about 6 months or so.

Otherwise, it will likely die down to the sort of buzz reserved for only the most hard core players discussing getting the maximum exploitation out of the existing game.

Old software is eventually worth nothing to the creator (realistically).

Whereas a board game that has merit, gets a revised rules manual and whatever errata was noticed since last printing.

Games like Third Reich are not left to languish. They become 2nd edition, 3rd edition, 4th edition, and then the morph into Advanced version.

Then the players start demanding the games over all design get applied to opportunities that were outside the scope of the original game ie Empire of the Rising Sun.

Then with luck, the game in time gets to see a group of above and beyond fans insist on totally rebuilding the game into something like Global War 2000 (but these versions usually are the work of independent interests.

This effect is common with games that are board games or based on print media only.

I have seen in countless times in the rolegaming industry. And the latest example of old board game wargame classics being rebuilt would be Axis and Allies gaining a Europe and a Pacific module that expands the game experience, or, Panzerbiltz being rebuilt as Panzerblitz 2.

This generally isn't possible with software.

Steel Panthers is a good example of just how much you can rebuild software. It was made into both Steel Panthers WaW 7.1 complete with 3 Mega Campaigns, as well as SPMBT a reworked modern option. But both games were unable to escape the simple fact, that as software, there was only so much rebuilding you can do.

And both of those games are free. Which means, you either truely wish to do it, and do it for personal reasons, or it doesn't get done. And their is no money in the process for the most part.

Steel Panthers, will always be I think, a great example of a great marketing tool, but no way to see your household bills get paid.

I am currently pondering buying SC (yes money is that tight). I do know though, if I ponder to long, I might be stuck with just the pondering. There is no garantee SC will be on sale when I decide to get off my butt and buy it (this has made numerous computer wargames go unrealisable for me in the past).

In a lot of cases, we wargamers can only talk fondly of computer wargames of the past. We can't play them, because either our computer doesn't like the old programs, or someone has released something recently that has the latest in tech allowed for, that does the same thing, and looks more appealing.

I have seen a lot of good publicity given to some designers of games, that when they were on the market were considered the best of the best, that today only exist as free downloads, because they don't deliver the same level of game value, as the latest in gaming.

Only a few reeeeeeeeeeally obsessed players will play wargames from 10 years ago, on computers they could never hope to give away.

But no amount of dust will ever make my board games non viable, for when my son gets old enough to get taught them.

But forums for board games are generally not the most active forums eh.

[Camicie Nere]

Still playing and enjoying SC on this front. I just only have a limited amount of time for such leisure pursuits and since the release I'd rather play the game than talk about it.

Great message board, though. I thoroughly enjoyed spending time here in the "pre-release" days and hope to be back when the anticipation cranks up for SCII and/or HC's next project.