Diplomacy?

[Stormbringer]

Hubert the game looks great! When is the full version coming out?! I was just ready to attempt Sea Lion and ran out of time! I didn't want to rush and get spanked on the English beaches so I built up my strength, and then the demo ended! Dammit!

What about diplomacy? It doesn't seem that you can effect it with MPPs. Shouldn't the Germans be able to spend some cash to bring her minor allies into the war? Or the British spend some of their money on the American or Soviet entry? It could be added into the research screen. 250MPPs for a point of political influence.

Have to agree about the Navy's. It seems that an aggressive Allied player can destroy the German Navy in just a couple of turns and there isn't much the German can do about it.

So the real question is "When is the full game coming out so I can launch Sea Lion?" Those Russkies won't come knocking for several more months, (I hope)... and it seems to take about a year to prepare...

[Mozzer]

I agree with Stormbringer on the issue of diplomacy. I think that this is a really great games but there seems no way of influencing the diplomatic aspects of the war. For example as Germany you just seem to sit tight and wait until Rumania or Finland or Hungary join the war on your side. There seems to be no way of pressurising potential allies to join your side or disuading them from joining your enemies. Furthermore, with the minor countries like Rumania there is no indication about how close they are to joining you, whether they are inclined towards you or the allies or what effect your actions have on these countries. Can Spain be won over as an ally for Germany as could have happened? What about Turkey which in the middle years of the war have gone in either camp. Just as major countries have a rating of how close they are to joining so I think should minor countries and that these should be subject to some kind of political points as suggested above. The diplomatic aspects of the war were as important as the military; if Turkey or Spain had joined the war it would have had enormous consequences.

I always like the Clash of Steel diplomacy where minor countries had a leaning and you had diplomatic points which you could use to put pressure on them. If you were doing well minor countries were more likely to join your camp. Put too much pressure on, however, be too pushy and your overtures could be counterproductive.

[Hubert Cater]

Honest answer is that I wanted to avoid how some of the other game implemented diplomacy through pressuring etc., because I often found it led to a lot of cheating. For me this was just a game design decision but diplomacy is mostly dealt with how you play the game. Some examples, play overly agressive as Axis and the US and Russia might enter the war early on, attack your facist ally Spain and facist countries like Romania or Hungary might not join your side etc. Under the right conditions Spain and Turkey could join the Axis and so on. Things are a bit reverse when playing as Allies but it is mostly intuitive and the 'random' options keep all these countries random but within a historical context

Hubert

[Mr. Clark]

On an interesting political note, During my Axis campaign, there was a pro-Allied coup in ... uh ... some country or other, maybe Yugoslavia. Anyhoo, I did not rush to remedy it, and it ended up being devastating to my campaign.

(Which was actually kinda fun.)

Is that a random event, or a historical one?

Is it one of the options? I guess I should pay more attention...

Anyway, just wanted to say it was pretty cool.

[ May 22, 2002, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Clark ]

[Elmo]

I also saw the Allied coup in Yugoslavia. I was happy to see it as I was playing the Allies. However the German AI was already poised with units to put the coup down and did so, getting a big reward in MPP's before I could do anything. Some preliminary hints about such coming events in an end of turn report would be helpful and add to the "chrome".

[Compassion]

Originally posted by Mozzer:

For example as Germany you just seem to sit tight and wait until Rumania or Finland or Hungary join the war on your side. There seems to be no way of pressurising potential allies to join your side or disuading them from joining your enemies.

What I've done in a couple games is if the balkans didn't declare by the time I was ready to pay attention to the east, I would invade Hungary with a huge army bent on a one turn kill... Next turn the others fell into line (meaning bulgaria & Romania both came on board and Yugoslavia went Allied [and were crushed under my boot]). The army that went into Hungary would just continue east to their start point for Barbarossa.

[[Wiking]]

Mr.Clark: this is a historical event. I think Yugoslavia joined the Axis for only a day or something like that before a pro-Allied coup forced the king to abdicate. Nice of Hubert to include this one!

[Mr. Clark]

Originally posted by SS_Obergruppenführer:

Mr.Clark: this is a historical event. I think Yugoslavia joined the Axis for only a day or something like that before a pro-Allied coup forced the king to abdicate. Nice of Hubert to include this one!

Cool!

[Barrold]

Hubert, thanks for the fun demo. I played it through about 4 times last night using differing levels of difficulty. Won a couple times nicely and had my butt handed to me the others.

I have a question about Vichy France that probably fits nicely into this thread. The Vichy area becomes neutral after the fall of France and seemingly does not contribute MPP's to the Axis unless they are once again invaded and conquered. Should this relationship be as such or is it figured in some other way that is not readily apparent?

Looking forward to the full game. Hope submarines are more effective there.

BDH

[Compassion]

Originally posted by barrold713:

I have a question about Vichy France that probably fits nicely into this thread

I have one too.... Will vichy be dissolved automagically by some happenstance (Torch, for example) or do the Germans have to declare war?

[Guanoman]

I'd suggest expanding the pre-game options for diplomacy. Instead of the historical/random settings, also have a setting to allow the player to exercise diplomatic options (via points or whatever, maybe similar to Clash of Steel or Advanced Third Reich). That way, players can play the diplomatic game if they want, or not.

[MrWinterbottom]

Originally posted by SS_Obergruppenführer:

Mr.Clark: this is a historical event. I think Yugoslavia joined the Axis for only a day or something like that before a pro-Allied coup forced the king to abdicate. Nice of Hubert to include this one!

Yep. I was pleasently surprised to see that happen. I'm sure somebody will correct me, but here goes..

Yugoslavia, along with Bulgaria had been a signatory to the Tripartite Pact signed by Italy, Germany and Japan giving Germany a useful ally. A military revolt in Belgrade overthrew the Regency and established a new government with an anti German stance. At the time the Germans were preparing for Operation Marita(The invasion of Greece) so the way to the Greek border was effectively blocked. So they prepared Operation Strafe (Punishment) to coincide with Marita. Strafe being the attack on Yugoslavia btw.

Or something along those lines..

Winter

[SuperTed]

Originally posted by barrold713:

I have a question about Vichy France that probably fits nicely into this thread. The Vichy area becomes neutral after the fall of France and seemingly does not contribute MPP's to the Axis unless they are once again invaded and conquered. Should this relationship be as such or is it figured in some other way that is not readily apparent?

BDH,

Vichy France becomes a minor neutral and is just like all the others.

[SuperTed]

Originally posted by Compassion:

Will vichy be dissolved automagically by some happenstance (Torch, for example) or do the Germans have to declare war?

Compassion,

Tha latter.

[Stormbringer]

Originally posted by Hubert Cater:

Honest answer is that I wanted to avoid how some of the other game implemented diplomacy through pressuring etc., because I often found it led to a lot of cheating. For me this was just a game design decision but diplomacy is mostly dealt with how you play the game. Some examples, play overly agressive as Axis and the US and Russia might enter the war early on, attack your facist ally Spain and facist countries like Romania or Hungary might not join your side etc. Under the right conditions Spain and Turkey could join the Axis and so on. Things are a bit reverse when playing as Allies but it is mostly intuitive and the 'random' options keep all these countries random but within a historical context

Hubert

I apreciate your honesty and I think that SC will be a great game.

I hate to be a pest but let me respectfully ask you to consider the diplomatic option, again. It just seems like it could bring some extra levels to the game.

I understand that you don't want the game won by "tricks" but I don't see how a strategic view can disinclude, at least some kind, of diplomacy.

How about direct gifts of MPPs? The benefit could be minimal if you think that too much will go into diplomacy and not enough into the military.

Couldn't I appease the facist Romania and Hungry with cash and weapons while plundering their co-facist Spaniards at the same time?

If I were to limit my Atlantic interference and told the American's how much I loved them and what a big misunderstanding the whole war is (via diplomatic points that have been purchased or cash payoffs), then I could I put off the American entry and still rape and plunder all across Europe. Germany declared war on the U.S. after all. What if they had asked for a non-aggression pact, broken their treaty with Japan and declared war on JAPAN?

Just some thoughts,

Again, looks great, I think I will go pre-order....